Using Heavier Weight Oil

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"IF "clearances" are larger than they were when the car was new, it means wear has occurred. If a car gets "used to" heavier oil by increasing "clearances", it means using heavier oil resulted in increased wear. Which, I think is possible, as a slow-to-flow heavy oil in something like a Honda Civic engine might cause more start-up wear than if the engine would have had the correct thinner oil in it.

"I like your response, Sprintman! Oil viscosity isn't a contest...use the thinnest recommended oil that works well in your application. Your "clearances" will thank you...especially at start-up."

I agree with this. And since just 10 years ago 30 wt. oils immediately became 20 wt. oils after a few hundred miles of use - we were all using 20 wt. oils anyway. Now we have oils that start out and stay in the 20wt. range. Really, nothing has changed in the oil wt. that has been flowing through the engines of cars for 40 years.

The use of "todays" heavier wt. oils is in some ways dangerous as they do not immediately thin to a lower grade. They simply stay too thick all the time.

aehaas
 
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moribundman, that reminds of that saying about the word "assume".

427, that's what you get for not specifing "associated accessories."
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"IF "clearances" are larger than they were when the car was new, it means wear has occurred. If a car gets "used to" heavier oil by increasing "clearances", it means using heavier oil resulted in increased wear. Which, I think is possible, as a slow-to-flow heavy oil in something like a Honda Civic engine might cause more start-up wear than if the engine would have had the correct thinner oil in it."

"If, I think, might"? Is there any scientific evidence that indicates that heavier oils can increase wear? This seems like a fairly straightforward mechanical engineering experiment. I can't believe that the major automobile and oil manufacturers can't give a definitive answer to this question. Either it does or it doesn't, right?
 
There are far to many "IF's" here.
Like I stated before. There are very few facts around here..
The only fact AEHaas is coming with is telling modern oils stays in grade.
Taking this to the conclusion that 30wt oils now are dangerous, is far out...
Those grades are recommended in all (more or less) other markeds than NA.
Mori and 427, show me some proof that those NA engines (Honda and Ford) are modified in any oil related way, compared to let's say their European sibling.

[ March 05, 2006, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: bar1 ]
 
Since I'm the "If, I think, Might" poster, it is because I haven't done the experiments, I'm not an automotive engineer. These statements are simply hypothetical, which could be right on at best, or dead wrong at worst. I was purposefully making sure I wasn't trying to state any of that as factual, because it came out of my brain's attempt at logic, and none of it came from a scientific-method proven. However, that information may be out there, in tested/proven and retested/reproven form. It wouldn't surprise me if it is. It WOULD surprise me if I was totally wrong, although it wouldn't be the first time!
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Here are a few studies I mentioned previously:

I reviewed articles from the SAE conferences on powertrain and fluid systems in Tampa, Fl of October 2004 and the Paris 2000 conference. See SAE SP-1894 and SP-1550. Here are some excepts:

A New Method of Measuring Aeration and Deaeration of Fluids, Morgan et al:
Air in oil causes oxidation, wasted power, higher oil temperatures, loss of lubricity among other adverse effects. Higher RPM increases aeration, so does increasing oil viscosity. (‘Just FYI).

Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in SI (Spark-Ignition) Engines, Schneider et al:
The rate of wear is much higher within 15-20 minutes of start-up than after reaching normal operating temperature. There was a lot of data but I conclude that the initial start-up time period (first 20 minutes) result is 100 nanometers of wear whereas the steady state wear rate was only 4 nanometers per hour thereafter. (Hence we should be concerned about start-up oil thickness more than running thickness. This justifies the statement that 95 percent of engine wear occurs just after start-up).

Application of a Biodegradable Lubricant in Two Flexible Fuel Vehicles, Jesper Schramm:
Vegetable biodegradable oils were used showing good wear characteristics despite excessive thinning over time. (These may be next! Animal and plant oils have esters as in Red Line oils.)

The SMAC, Under Pressure Oil Aeration Measurement System in Running Engines, Bregent et al:
Oil aging, valve train and bearing problems and thermal problems occur with aeration. Below 110 C there is no problem but as one goes up the aeration ratio increases rapidly. (A cooler running engine from a thinner, faster flowing oil may lubricate better for this reason alone - aeration was a “hot” topic).

Development of the Sequence IV A Valve Train Wear Lubrication Test:Part 1, Sagawa et al:
Viscosity data reveals that the more viscous oil did not significantly alter the cam angle of minimum oil film thickness. Of greater importance is the finding that the higher viscosity oil continued to exhibit boundary layer lubrication. (Ergo thicker is not necessarily better).
The effect of engine intake air humidity was significant so that tests are now done with specified humidity conditions.
It was postulated that fuel dilution of oil would elevate cam wear. Fuel dilution of 4.5 percent did not effect wear. (This would have the effect of lowering the viscosity about 1 grade).

The Effects of Crankcase Oil Viscosity on Engine Friction at Low Temperatures, Cockbill et al:
By using lower viscosity oils there is less friction, improved cold weather starting, improved fuel economy, a savings of starting system components and less wear by increasing the rate of oil pressurization and flow in the upper oil galleries.

Evaluation of Oil Performance Using the Tu High Temperature Engine Test With a View to Extending Oil Drain Intervals, Bouvier et al:
Oxidation and thickening is the limiting factor for oil longevity. Generally modern oils thin only 10 percent then thicken up to 60 percent within as little as 96 hrs. of operation ( -in the accelerated test engine. Let me comment that all test criteria are designed to mimic real engine operating conditions but at an accelerated rate).
There is accelerated acidification and corrosive wear that occurs.
Oil thickening was also time dependent. Thickening at 30,000 km was 2 times more when done over 21 months than over a 10 month period. (Change your oil every spring as I suggested before).

Development of the Sequence III G Engine Oil Certification Test, Clark et al:
Engine tests were made more severe again. (Over the years the oil ratings have improved but this has always been despite the increase in testing severity. It was III ...D, E, F, and is now III G). The oil inlet temperature was decreased from 155 to 150 C. The test was 80 and is now 100 hours. There were 8 oil level adjustments allowed now there are 5. The inlet engine air temperature was raised from 27 to 35 C. The engine load was increased 25 percent.
Despite all this the current 0W-20 oils were still GF-4 compliant and showed minimal wear characteristics as long as ZDP levels were higher than 0.03 percent. (The SM rated oils I have seen so far have levels of 0.08).

Other papers showed how they always consider older engines when formulating new oils for full backwards compatibility.
There was a lot on using thinner oils and how they do not result in excessive wear as previously feared. This is in part because of modern additives.

aehaas
 
I've never said using thinner (20wt) oils cause more wear. What study shows a 30wt causing more wear than a 20wt (if their cold properties has equal SAE grade)?
 
Or the paper that shows a 30wt oil "is in some ways dangerous" compared to thinner 20wt oil?
 
By heavier wt. oils I was referring to 40 and 50 wt. oils when 20 or 30 wt. oils are specified. These heavier oils are often referred to as being more "robust" or "better" but I do not know what these terms mean.

I do believe that automotive manufacturers specify thicker oils at times to cover situations that may require them. For example, if a car can do 150 MPH fully loaded with people and luggage going up hills in hot climates then thicker may be indicated.

Even in those conditions, interestingly, Ford still recommends the 20 wt. oil.

The manufacturer may also be happy that you choose to use this 40 wt. oil in the urban environment. Low temperature, frequent short trips over time will accelerate wear so you will have to get a new car sooner. Cars driven on the highway last much longer than those in the urban environment. The reason is that the oil does not get hot enough.

Generally vehicles designed to use 40 and 50 wt. oils are known as heavy duty use. This has a definition by the SAE as operating at something as 75 percent output for more than 50 percent of the time. These engines typically are turned on at the start of the day and turned off at the end of the day.

Shokhead, you may benefit from reading these:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000427

aehaas
 
Again, Dr. Haas, I appreciate your participation on this site. I certainly have a lot to learn, but, thanks to people such as you, I think I at least have a layman's handle on what works sufficiently in the family car.
 
Bearing clearances keep coming up. From the numbers that I have seen, clearances have essentially not changed over the last 30 or so years. Is there even ONE example of an engine with teensy weensy clearances?
 
The clearances may actually be the same. The size of the asparities however have been reduced with newer production methods. This ALONE would allow for thinner oils and all the benefits thus derived.

The current additives further enhance the oil's properties.

aehaas
 
OK...higher output engines that require (recommend) higher vis fluid, do so because of...why?

or

Is there any reason for me to not be confident that a very thin fluid would not do a better job of protecting than the oem recommended 50wt in a high performance engine?

And where is the threshold? When will I be too thin?
Or should we be shooting for 0wt period, and concern ourselves with elasto and barrier conditions taking care of business and letting the fluid simply be a cooling agent?
The syn bases seem to be handling increased heat well.

And while I'm rambling...
Would thinner fluid help promote EHD film?
 
quote:

Originally posted by Jaybird:
Is there any reason for me to not be confident that a very thin fluid would not do a better job of protecting than the oem recommended 50wt in a high performance engine?

I can only think of one car that comes with a 50wt in the sump and is spec'd for a 50wt by the manufacturer, so this seems pretty much like a non-issue.
 
quote:

The clearances may actually be the same. The size of the asparities however have been reduced with newer production methods. This ALONE would allow for thinner oils and all the benefits thus derived.

The current additives further enhance the oil's properties.

aehaas

Let's hope abrasive contaminants that get into the oil, for example via a vacuum leak or through the oil filler hole, are smaller today, too.
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PS: Maybe I ought to have my engine's cylinders examinded for asperity size.
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quote:

I can only think of one car that comes with a 50wt in the sump and is spec'd for a 50wt by the manufacturer, so this seems pretty much like a non-issue.

Well, my car's engine, per the manual, can use anything from 5W-20 to 20W-50/10W-60. My '89 listed 5W-20 to 20W-50. I suppose at temps under -10 C the asperities didn't exceed the physical thickness of the 5W-20.
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