Using DMO in a gas engine?

[Cyprs]

Hello Greaser, remember the 45K-50K OCIs with stellar UOA numbers using HDEO XD3 syn with the 2.4 Toyota gasser and Pitzel told me recently that he does 50K+ OCIs with his 3.1 for years now too.

I have to ask if any one out there is using a SM rated oil for 50K OCIs with stellar analysis numbers?

In my understanding, any oil that has a Zinc/phosphorous ppm of over 800 ppm with SM rating is not complying with the SM rating criteria. I am also aware that that there are some CJ-4/SM oils above that 800 ppm too, but I am NOT counting on that to continue in any faith or trust, I fully believe they will regulate that more strictly in near future. I refuse to sacrifice my HDEO in my gassers for possible .5 mpg saving and possible premature engine damage with a SM rated oil only, I am not personally sold on these "energy conserving" gas rated oils.

Many myths against usage of HDEOs in gassers originated from trucking industry to prevent employees from taking home oil for home use in their gassers. I have never heard of a cat converter destroying due to HDEO in gasser, in years and years usage I have never damage a cat.

Gasolene Japanese bike engines have extreme high zinc/phospherous oil usage, many bike owners will put nothing but HDEO or high zinc equivelant motorcycle oils in those gas engines. I have to reason that if some gassers absolutely have to have high zinc add packs then why not my gassers too. People with muscle car gas engines look for HDEO or buy zinc/phospherous additive products to protect their gas engines, the key word is PROTECT their gas engines.

Many years ago I bought my first diesel, at that point I started researching HDEOs in Bitog and Oil companies web pages for that diesel engine, it was in that research I discovered the bonus of gas engine applications in HDEOs along with the superior engine protection of HDEOs. I started pulling spec sheets off the internet on gas only rated oils to compare with diesel/gas rated oils. Along with other Bitog input on HDEOs in gassers I made my decision for HDEO usage in all my gassers and have done so since. Had it NOT been for buying a diesel I would have probably continued with single gas rated oils with less protection in my gassers.

I live and work in a huge agricultural area for last 25 years of business in working on farms and ranches, these good people use NOTHING but HDEO in every thing they own, diesel or gas engines, they buy Diesel/gas rated HDEO in 45 gallon barrels, it is common to see three barrels sitting in a shop at any given time, they own and operate a lot of diesels.

They have been quietly and methodically using HDEOs in gassers for decades with no consequences to thier gas engines, they buy a new gas truck and use it for a family vehicle, they then use it as run about truck for hauling fuel, chemicals,feed, errands, chasing cattle etc for decades more. These vehicles are not babied, they drive extreme dusty conditions on grid roads. Whether it is the wife's small farm car for grocery runs, SUV, whatever, every gas engine new or old sees HDEO right out of the barrel into the sump, they have quietly methodically proven HDEO in gassers for decades and will be for decades more.

HDEO usage in gassers is not an exclusive club these days now as farmers/ranchers, fleet owners etc.once were for decades, I believe they were way ahead of their time and time proved and proves them right to this day on HDEO use in gassers. The fact that HDEOs bought in agriculture bulk sales will give me a group 1V POA XD3 syn HDEO for $4.00 less than a Mobil 1 Group 1V SM oil then I have far more engine protection for $4.00 less per litre, I cant beat that in value or engine protection.

I do not use or suggest heavy dino 15-40 or 20-50 dino HDEO in gassers except in old engines in heat of summer. Ranchers and farmers also take advantage of great bulk pricing on HDEO syns. in 0-30 or 0-40 Syn HDEO for cooler weather, these oils are NOT "molasses in January" in thickness when you pour them out of bottle in sub zero or warm weather. Most people exercize common sense in HDEO use in gassers as people do with gas rated oil in their gassers.

Many should read the spec sheets on HDEOs and their gas applications rather than glazing over HDEOs as diesel engine oils only. Most HDEOs have a great turbo rating too for gas and diesel engines too. In reading specs/appliations on HDEOs one feels very confident putting an oil like XD3 0-30 HDEO syn in a gas engine. In my reading/research I find myself considering "why would I put less protection with a SM rated oil at more cost than my heaping add pack in HDEO? In my opinion, SM rated oil should be far less cost than HDEO, why isn't it? One reason comes to mind, it is quite simple, farmers are not going to pay $.0010 per litre for a HDEO syn group 1V oil on 20-30 litre OCIs on thier diesels, they need bulk pricing as they get in dino HDEOs too. The common residential gas engine owner with a 4 litre sump will probably pay the $10.00 per litre for a Group 1V Mobil 1 SM oil in not realizing he can do the same Group 1V HDEO with more add pack at $4.00-$5.00 per litre less. This is the secret most HDEO users in gas engines know and that is optimum engine protection at lower cost with full gas rating applications in SL or SM depending on CI-4 or CJ-4 diesel rating protection.
Cyprs

 

[Greaser]

Yes Cyprs only on BITOG will the truth be known

 

[50pascals]

Originally Posted By: toocrazy2yoo
Given all that, why run an unneeded HDEO in a passenger car? What's the point? Run what they spec and call it a day.


Because I own dozens of engines in cars, trucks, rv, tractors, lawnmowers, etc.

I run Rotella T synthetic in everything. It is approved for gas engines as well. I also run it in my wife's VW even though that is supposedly verboten.

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: toocrazy2yoo
Heck, most of the new cars cars out there don't even have a timing chain, they drive the cams with a belt


What new cars? Most new cars are using a timing chain these days.

 

[y2k345]

Interesting

 

[DmanWho]

Here's a tech write-up from the Cam-Shield site. It got me thinking...

Why NOT diesel or racing oil?

Contrary to the current internet buzz that diesel oil is the oil to use in a gasoline flat tappet cam engine, the correct oil to use on a continuous basis in your classic car's flat tappet cam engine is an oil designed for gasoline engines that contains the correct level of ZDDP anti-wear protection. Similarly, a race oil is not recommended for continued use in a street driven gasoline engine.

If you look on the back of a bottle of oil you will see the API performance classification for the oil. Diesel oils with API credentials of CI-4, CI-4 Plus, CJ-4 will typically have Zinc levels around 1100 parts per million (ppm). For a flat tappet cam gasoline engine with moderate valve spring pressures (such as a flat head engine) the generally accepted minimum level of protection is 1200 to 1300 ppm of Zinc. For muscle cars and hot rods with higher valve spring pressures, 1600 ppm will give uncompromised protection. Race cars generally need around 2000 ppm. Break-in of a new cam is generally best protected with around 2500 ppm (in addition to the molybdenum cam lobe lube). Current API SM/ILSAC GF-4 gasoline engine oils have incredible performance capabilities and will have approximately 850 ppm of Zinc, but will need to be supplemented with ZDDP to make them suitable for use in flat tappet cam engines in classic cars, hot rods and race cars. It is extremely important to add a highly concentrated ZDDP product so as not to dilute the oil and thus impact the performance integrity of the engine oil.

Here are the differences between diesel engine oil and gasoline engine oil. In a modern diesel engine there is substantial exhaust soot contamination that the engine oil must contend with. Diesel oil is designed with much higher levels of detergency and dispersency to fight the soot contamination. Like ZDDP anti-wear chemistry, detergents are a surface active chemistry and compete directly for space on metal surfaces, such as the cam lobe and lifter face. So, in practice, the effective level of Zinc anti-wear is a bit lower than what we expect it to be based solely on chemical analysis. Additionally, the ZDDP that is generally used in diesel formulas is primary ZDDP (which activates at higher engine temperatures) since a diesel engine runs predominantly at operating temperature. In a gasoline engine, we must have both primary and secondary ZDDP (which activates at lower temperatures) since the engine will experience a significant number of cold starts. Also, the viscosity modifier polymers that are used in multi-viscosity engine oil to prevent viscosity loss at operating temperature (to protect the bearings) are different for diesel oil and gasoline oil. Diesels operate at essentially the same rpm all day long and need polymers that are shear stable to protect the bearings. Gasoline engines experience many large ranges of rpm during operation and require polymers that have both shear stability and thickening efficiency capability to protect the bearings.

Race oil formulas are typically designed with reduced levels of detergency and dispersency to improve performance of the anti-wear and friction modifier chemistries. Race oil is typically changed very frequently and race engines are typically re-built frequently. For a street driven gasoline engine, the correct levels of detergency and dispersency are required to prevent deposit formation (particularly at the piston rings), and sludge formation, from contaminants. This becomes more important to classic car owners who may only drive the vehicle occasionally and who change the oil once or twice a year.