Using Cheaper filters if you have a by-pass

[msparks]

Hey,

I was wondering if it would be a good idea to use the expensive FF Amsoil SDF or Mobil 1 filters if you are running a by-pass.

It would seem to me if you are using a by-pass system you could get by with a less expensive FF filter since the by-pass will remove most of the contaminants?

Right now I am using the Amsoil Dual Remote system with the Amsoil SDF 26 and BE110.
I have been thinking of switching to a Fram since it would be much cheaper.

Do you think I would still have the same protection?

 

[VaderSS]

I would guess that any quality FF filter would be sufficient.

Supertech would be the minimum I'd go with. If I switched to bypass filtration, I'd probably run an AC in my own application.

 

[joee12]

msparks, I would go with a Supertech before a Fram. I cut one open last week, paper thin metal shell and cardboard endcaps

And to think that I used them for years in my 5.0 Mustang

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by joee12:
msparks, I would go with a Supertech before a Fram. I cut one open last week, paper thin metal shell and cardboard endcaps

And to think that I used them for years in my 5.0 Mustang

---

Me too! I used a lot of Fram filters on my 5.0 Mustang, even with a Paxton supercharger on that engine too! Boy was I ever stupid!

 

[ssmokn]

If I was running a bypass (and I hope to get one installed one of these days when I have time to check out my options closer).

I would use an "average" filter in the $2 or $3 range (Supertech, Purolator, Motorcraft etc). They are certainly more than adequate and the oil will be super cleaned a little at a time with the bypass setup.

If and when I do mine I'm going with a single roll of TP unit. A roll of TP and a Supertech filter

That is my plan.

 

[alexiskai]

I'm using an OilGuard bypass and a Mobil 1 FF. My reasoning was that since the bypass only takes 5% of the flow at any one time, if I went with a cheap FF filter, I'd have 20-40 micron particles floating around for five minutes or so before the bypass got them rather than being removed within one minute by a high-quality FF filter. Five minutes isn't very long, but it's long enough to get lodged somewhere or to activate the protectant additives in the oil and thus shorten the useful life of the oil.

Furthermore, if particles have to get filtered out, I'd much prefer them to be stuck in the FF filter, because on my vehicle that one is much easier to swap out.

 

[OneQuartLow]

This same question was bouncing around my skull, and I'd decided a good filter would probably still be worthwhile. An M1 or any high quality full-flow could last a full year paired with a bypass where I would be changing the fram 4 times/year.

Is RalphPWood in the building?

David

 

[VaderSS]

I don't think the FF filter would last any longer when paired with a bypass filter. The FF filter will still be trapping the vast majority of the particles bigger than 15-20 Microns.

The bypass filter would mainly be trapping the particles that get through the FF filter.

 

[RalphPWood]

The best lube oil and fuel filter is good old fashioned cellulose. Toilet paper is nothing but concentrated cellulose of a very high quality. The Motor Guard submicronic bypass filter compresses a roll of tp amd makes it expand inside two tapered housing halves. With a bypass filter that can remove 0.01 micron abrasives and water I don't lose too much sleep over which full flow filter is best. Some filter makers are claiming that their filters are better than tp. One company claims they use an advanced element. If you cut the cartridge open you will find a roll of tp.
Sadly we are getting away from which filter is best and going to which filter maker has the best sales pitch. It is hard to imagine some salesman convincing someone that a $20.00 element is less expensive than a $1.00 element. I have a Fram on my Camry. I will change it in a couple of years. I will cut it open and look for anything large indicating I have an engine problem. I probably won't find anything. The main reason for using a full flow with a Motor Guard bypass is to keep oil from running out of the filter mount.
I was talking to Sammy of Stockton CA an Amsoil dealer. He takes the cartridges out of the cannister filters and tosses them. Thats his answer to the engine makers that are going back to the cannister type filters that we thought we had gotten rid of. He gave me the phone number of a guy that makes reusable full flow filters. I doubt that yoou would ever need to change or chean one of these types of full flow filters. Perfect for using with a submicronic bypass filter.

Ralph

 

[VaderSS]

Ralph, I don't understand. If the 100% of the oil is traveling through the FF filter, but only about 5% of the flow is traveling through the BF, then it stands to reason that the larger particles would be removed by the FF filter.

My thoughts on it; a 20 micron particle is traveling through the system, it hits the FF filter and is trapped, while a 1 micron particle is in the system, it passes through the FF filer on average, 20 times before making it into the stream of oil that is flowing through the BP filter, it is then trapped.

 

[alexiskai]

Er... well, Ralph, that sounded a lot like a sales pitch right there. Meanwhile, the topic of discussion is whether ultra-fine FF filtration is justified when using a bypass filter. To me it doesn't make any sense to be anal enough to spend $150 on a bypass installation but not enough to spend $10 on a filter. If you put a crap filter on there and it goes into bypass mode (not the same as a bypass filter, obviously), since the extra filter only takes 5-10% of the flow, you could have large contaminants floating around your engine for half an hour or more. Even if it doesn't go into bypass, you still have particles under 40 microns floating around. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, etc., etc.

BTW, any filter can remove "0.01 micron abrasives." This occurs through molecular attractive forces between any two particles, not as a result of the efficacy of the filter. And I have yet to hear a response to the criticisms of TP filters raised at oilguard (hope they don't censor this link).
---------------------------------------
How These Types of Filters Work
Oil flows axially (lengthwise) through the roll. Typically these filters fall into two categories:

1. High-quality rolled filter paper, wound on a central core, fit tightly into a cylindrical container.

2. Commercially available toilet paper or paper towel rolls, inserted into a cylindrical container.

......

Rolled Paper Filter .... Danger of Loading and Channeling Before & After

Notice the passageways created by pressure
along the side of the filter element.

Passageways such as these allow oil to detour around the filter,
thereby dramatically decreasing filter performance.

Problems with Rolled Paper Style Bypass Filters

Limited to "Surface" Filtration – an inability to trap particles of successively smaller size.

[ October 27, 2002, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[RalphPWood]

Vaderss,
The problem with your theory is a good engine has virtually nothing in the oil large enough to be filtered out by the full flow filter. Thats why when you change your oil your full flow filter is still clean. The only way the full flow filter can start working is when small stuff starts bunching up. Bypass filter users want the small stuff and water in the filter, not suspended in the oil where it can wear the engine and cause acid. It's kind of like pouring oil slowly thru a bale of cotton vs pouring it fast thru a bed sheet or 4" of media vs 1/32 " of media. Fleetguard, Wix, and Lubrafiner uses about 3" of media in their best bypass filters. They are usually shredded newspapers and wood chips. Hastings and a few others packed their filters with cotton. Pleated filters are pretty much a joke. Some are better than others. None of them are any good in a modern engine.

Ralph

 

[RalphPWood]

The Gulf Coast filter is the easiest filter to sell because they have the big name customers that are glad to put in a good word for the filters. A man was hammering me on a boating forum a few years ago. He finally said on a private email that I was good at defending myself. He said give me some phone numbers of customers I can talk to and send me some information. I might be able to use your filters. He is a heavy equipment engineer at Cape Canaveral. An engineer in charge of North Carolina DOT ferry boats invited him up and showed him the filters on the big Cat engines. He contacted the USMF test facility at Eglin AFB Florida. He got a letter of endorsement from Shell Oil, NASA was mostly interested in the heavy duty GCF 0-1 and 0-2 filters plus the big fuel filters. Of course NASA has their own lab and did a lot of testing of the oil.
I got an email from a Sterling truck dealer wanting prices for the Gulf Coast filters for a 0-1 for lube oil 0-1 jr for the cooling system and hydraulics and an F-1 for the fuel. They said the truck was for the space program and the filters were required. General Motors has the GM 0-1 which is almost identical to the one on Vettemans truck and uses the same element. It is GM part # 1507 1671.
The Motor Guard bypass filter is my favorite because of the design, your engine doesn't know the difference between the Frantz, Motor Guard or Gulf Coast. They are all submicronic bypass filters.
The Marion County Oregon Sheriff's Department changes the full flow filters on the patrol cars about once a year. They change the Frantz bypass filter about every 2 to 3,000 miles the last I heard. They don't drain oil. They don't have a channeling problem because they use good TP and don't force in an oversized roll. They have been doing it for about 28 years.

Ralph

 

[Eric]

Uhhh... Ralph, are saying that the TP one uses in one's TP filter affects results?? Which TP is best?? Are we about to debate the merits of Charmin Vs house brand??

I gotta stop coming here or I'm gonna end up at that support group fer real!!

 

[Patman]

I know bypass filters do a great job, and I'm not trying to take away from your business, however I do not believe the statement that full flow filters cannot do a good enough job. There are enough cars on the road that have 300k or more on them with a conventional filter, nothing fancy, to prove that they do a decent enough job. Heck, I work with a guy who has an old Mercedes diesel that has 800,000 miles on it! I asked him if it had a bypass filter system on it and he said no, just a regular oil filter. He's the second or third owner, so he's not entirely sure of it's maintenance history although he does know it's still the original engine, not rebuilt yet.

 

[RalphPWood]

Eric,

I've never had a problem finding good T.P. There were years when you had to get it at a janitorial supply store. The Scott 1000 sheet at the grocery store is excellent but it is too large. Some like Scott Tradition. I use Scott Kimberly Clark from Viking Office Products

The engineer at Cape Canaveral said Charmin is too fluffy. I've never used Charmin but it looks OK to me. The company I work for uses Fort James Preference. It works good in the Equipment.

Ralph

[ October 27, 2002, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[RalphPWood]

Patman,

Some engines don't generate a lot of abrasives. It might be the metallurgy, air filtration, etc. These engines will last about the same miles if you throw away the full flow filter that has little to do and just change the oil regularly. About the only time the engine on these cars need the full flow filter is when the engine starts geneerating large particles such as when metal fatigue starts getting to the cam and lifters or when the engine is new and breaking in.
Many people including government agencies are using the submicronic bypass filters to eliminate routine oil changes.
I have a Detroit 8.2 engine at work that is so clean it's amazing. That's not typical for a diesel engine. I'm waiting for the company to decide to get rid of the truck. I want the engine. I take care of that engine.
A Detroit with over 1,000,000 miles still had the hone marks in the liners with no measurable wear except the rings. It had two oil drains since new. It uses Shell Rotella T 15-40 and the big paper towel filters which are changed every 10,000 miles. Detroit said the ring wear was caused by a split hose at the intercooler.

Ralph

 

[Patman]

I agree, for large trucks, a bypass filter should be mandatory, as it'll save a fortune in oil changes, plus extend it's life indefinitely. I just don't think the average person, who is just basically looking to go 200k, really has much of a need for it. For them, FF filters work just fine.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Sorry alexiskai , had to modify the link on your post but I think it was an excellent point. I think you'll approve of the modification on your post and believe it makes it easier to follow.

 

[alexiskai]

Well, I don't really approve of the policy that makes the modifications necessary, since it forces us to violate the copyright on the posted information by not properly crediting the source - but that's another topic. Anyway, additional criticisms listed on the offending page included:

"Problems with Rolled Paper Style Bypass Filters

Limited to "Surface" Filtration – an inability to trap particles of successively smaller size.

Loading – filter blockage from contaminants building up at the end of the roll which is first exposed to oil flow.

Poor Structural Integrity – lack of strength between layers exposing filters to channeling (large passageways created over time) which eliminates filter effectiveness.

Frequent Element Replacement and Costly Make-Up Oil Additions – bypass filtration systems featuring rolled paper filters require more frequent element changes. They are also much larger in size, and in effect create an extra sump of oil that is changed every time the roll of paper is changed. This results in significant make-up oil requirements. Some models require 15-30% of the sump capacity of the engine in new make-up oil with each filter element change. In effect, each element change is a partial oil change. This constant dilution of the dirty oil with new clean oil produces good oil analysis reports and gives the illusion that the filter is working.

Filter Element Replacement Cost – Yes a roll of toilet paper or a roll of paper towels is cheap. But these items were not designed or manufactured to be oil filters. You wouldn’t use a high quality filter element to dry off your hands or take care of your bathroom business, and there is no reason why you should use a common roll of paper towels or toilet paper to filter your oil and protect your expensive engine. The paper quality is not intended to hold up to the combination of heat, pressure and loading of oil contamination. Simply put, it is not recommended to utilize a product for something other than its original purpose."