We need more refining capacity. Drowning in crude doesn't help if the green weenies keep us from processing the stuff into something we can use.
US could be OPEC independent in 5 years
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Originally Posted By: HerrStig
We need more refining capacity. Drowning in crude doesn't help if the green weenies keep us from processing the stuff into something we can use.
That is one of the reasons why, despite the increased production, oil and gasoline prices keep going up. US oil is increasingly being sold abroad and at Brent Crude market prices instead of WTI.
We need more refining capacity. Drowning in crude doesn't help if the green weenies keep us from processing the stuff into something we can use.
That is one of the reasons why, despite the increased production, oil and gasoline prices keep going up. US oil is increasingly being sold abroad and at Brent Crude market prices instead of WTI.
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I wonder why we arent allowed to build just one big refinery?! Sad that this country has not had a refinery built since what; 1963 or 64'. What a shame
Originally Posted By: shell_user
I wonder why we arent allowed to build just one big refinery?! Sad that this country has not had a refinery built since what; 1963 or 64'. What a shame
We did have a lot of capacity and efficiency update that kept up with the demand. The truth is, all the money in energy is in the up stream of the business (drilling, exploring, pumping) and mid to down stream (refinery, retail gas station) are not that profitable.
I wonder why we arent allowed to build just one big refinery?! Sad that this country has not had a refinery built since what; 1963 or 64'. What a shame
We did have a lot of capacity and efficiency update that kept up with the demand. The truth is, all the money in energy is in the up stream of the business (drilling, exploring, pumping) and mid to down stream (refinery, retail gas station) are not that profitable.
So what happened to the "we did have" portion of your explanation? I am lost. So its kinda like "screw the consumer if we can sell the oil to foreigners/countries".
I see
I see
Originally Posted By: shell_user
So what happened to the "we did have" portion of your explanation? I am lost. So its kinda like "screw the consumer if we can sell the oil to foreigners/countries".
I see
A lot of the refinery output was sold oversea because it is more profitable to do so than upgrade to the US standard. The low sulfur diesel is a prime example.
Another reason is the reduced demand. Fuel economy increase causes excess refinery capacity and they therefore sold the output oversea.
So what happened to the "we did have" portion of your explanation? I am lost. So its kinda like "screw the consumer if we can sell the oil to foreigners/countries".
I see
A lot of the refinery output was sold oversea because it is more profitable to do so than upgrade to the US standard. The low sulfur diesel is a prime example.
Another reason is the reduced demand. Fuel economy increase causes excess refinery capacity and they therefore sold the output oversea.
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Pandabear, thank you for the answer.
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
We need more refining capacity. Drowning in crude doesn't help if the green weenies keep us from processing the stuff into something we can use.
U.S refineries exported record amounts of gasoline and diesel - how do we not have enough capacity?
We need more refining capacity. Drowning in crude doesn't help if the green weenies keep us from processing the stuff into something we can use.
U.S refineries exported record amounts of gasoline and diesel - how do we not have enough capacity?
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Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: shell_user
I wonder why we arent allowed to build just one big refinery?! Sad that this country has not had a refinery built since what; 1963 or 64'. What a shame
We did have a lot of capacity and efficiency update that kept up with the demand. The truth is, all the money in energy is in the up stream of the business (drilling, exploring, pumping) and mid to down stream (refinery, retail gas station) are not that profitable.
The big oil companies do not want to invest in low profit business, simple. Many small refiners have been bought out and closed over the last few years to keep the majors refining at full tilt. Oil refining may be the only industry operating at close to full capacity now. The way things are right now, anytime a US refinery has a shutdown or production bottleneck, the industry insiders run around like headless chickens. When the economy really picks up steam, I think we'll see spot shortages of gas and much higher prices.
Originally Posted By: shell_user
I wonder why we arent allowed to build just one big refinery?! Sad that this country has not had a refinery built since what; 1963 or 64'. What a shame
We did have a lot of capacity and efficiency update that kept up with the demand. The truth is, all the money in energy is in the up stream of the business (drilling, exploring, pumping) and mid to down stream (refinery, retail gas station) are not that profitable.
The big oil companies do not want to invest in low profit business, simple. Many small refiners have been bought out and closed over the last few years to keep the majors refining at full tilt. Oil refining may be the only industry operating at close to full capacity now. The way things are right now, anytime a US refinery has a shutdown or production bottleneck, the industry insiders run around like headless chickens. When the economy really picks up steam, I think we'll see spot shortages of gas and much higher prices.
Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Highly unlikely we will be OPEC free.
If there was a political will, it would have already happened. But we made a deal with the Saudis in the 70s after going off the gold standard, to protect their oil from the Russians as long as they sold their oil in dollars and saved their money in US banks/treasury bonds. It's all part of the plan. Use up OPEC oil, and once it starts becoming less feasible or geo political realities start getting in the way, open up our spigots.
Not true. Oil is priced in US dollars because the US dollar is the reserve currency of the World Bank. This happened right after WWII when England was bankrupt and the dollar took the place of the British Pound. This is due to all of the debt the UK owed to the USA from the lend lease act. Soon when the USA has sold enough debt to China then the Chinese Yuan will be the reserve currency and oil will be priced in Yuan every morning and gas will be $6-9/gallon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency
Are you aware the Brits payed back every single cent plus billions in interest, unlike certain other countries we won't name. It wasn't that long ago either.
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Highly unlikely we will be OPEC free.
If there was a political will, it would have already happened. But we made a deal with the Saudis in the 70s after going off the gold standard, to protect their oil from the Russians as long as they sold their oil in dollars and saved their money in US banks/treasury bonds. It's all part of the plan. Use up OPEC oil, and once it starts becoming less feasible or geo political realities start getting in the way, open up our spigots.
Not true. Oil is priced in US dollars because the US dollar is the reserve currency of the World Bank. This happened right after WWII when England was bankrupt and the dollar took the place of the British Pound. This is due to all of the debt the UK owed to the USA from the lend lease act. Soon when the USA has sold enough debt to China then the Chinese Yuan will be the reserve currency and oil will be priced in Yuan every morning and gas will be $6-9/gallon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency
Are you aware the Brits payed back every single cent plus billions in interest, unlike certain other countries we won't name. It wasn't that long ago either.
Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Highly unlikely we will be OPEC free.
If there was a political will, it would have already happened. But we made a deal with the Saudis in the 70s after going off the gold standard, to protect their oil from the Russians as long as they sold their oil in dollars and saved their money in US banks/treasury bonds. It's all part of the plan. Use up OPEC oil, and once it starts becoming less feasible or geo political realities start getting in the way, open up our spigots.
Not true. Oil is priced in US dollars because the US dollar is the reserve currency of the World Bank. This happened right after WWII when England was bankrupt and the dollar took the place of the British Pound. This is due to all of the debt the UK owed to the USA from the lend lease act. Soon when the USA has sold enough debt to China then the Chinese Yuan will be the reserve currency and oil will be priced in Yuan every morning and gas will be $6-9/gallon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency
LOL
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Highly unlikely we will be OPEC free.
If there was a political will, it would have already happened. But we made a deal with the Saudis in the 70s after going off the gold standard, to protect their oil from the Russians as long as they sold their oil in dollars and saved their money in US banks/treasury bonds. It's all part of the plan. Use up OPEC oil, and once it starts becoming less feasible or geo political realities start getting in the way, open up our spigots.
Not true. Oil is priced in US dollars because the US dollar is the reserve currency of the World Bank. This happened right after WWII when England was bankrupt and the dollar took the place of the British Pound. This is due to all of the debt the UK owed to the USA from the lend lease act. Soon when the USA has sold enough debt to China then the Chinese Yuan will be the reserve currency and oil will be priced in Yuan every morning and gas will be $6-9/gallon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency
LOL
Originally Posted By: tgferg67
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
We need more refining capacity. Drowning in crude doesn't help if the green weenies keep us from processing the stuff into something we can use.
U.S refineries exported record amounts of gasoline and diesel - how do we not have enough capacity?
We've got those "special standards" here. How many different "gas brews" are required here? They're not that fussy elsewhere. In New England, they can't supply enough low sulfur heating oil to go around.
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
We need more refining capacity. Drowning in crude doesn't help if the green weenies keep us from processing the stuff into something we can use.
U.S refineries exported record amounts of gasoline and diesel - how do we not have enough capacity?
We've got those "special standards" here. How many different "gas brews" are required here? They're not that fussy elsewhere. In New England, they can't supply enough low sulfur heating oil to go around.
We're saddled with a relatively aged infrastructure that is often not economical to upgrade to the current or near future standards.
To look at this from a different angle, is it in our best interests to "Drill baby, drill" and try to be OPEC independent for the short term? I would rather have the resources available on our own home turf when supplies tighten. If we can use imported oil in the mean time, why not?
To look at this from a different angle, is it in our best interests to "Drill baby, drill" and try to be OPEC independent for the short term? I would rather have the resources available on our own home turf when supplies tighten. If we can use imported oil in the mean time, why not?
Originally Posted By: Coprolite
We're saddled with a relatively aged infrastructure that is often not economical to upgrade to the current or near future standards.
To look at this from a different angle, is it in our best interests to "Drill baby, drill" and try to be OPEC independent for the short term? I would rather have the resources available on our own home turf when supplies tighten. If we can use imported oil in the mean time, why not?
It's a good question, clouded by the somewhat non-democratic nature of some of the oil states.
We're saddled with a relatively aged infrastructure that is often not economical to upgrade to the current or near future standards.
To look at this from a different angle, is it in our best interests to "Drill baby, drill" and try to be OPEC independent for the short term? I would rather have the resources available on our own home turf when supplies tighten. If we can use imported oil in the mean time, why not?
It's a good question, clouded by the somewhat non-democratic nature of some of the oil states.
Oil companies have some of the smartest minds working for them. They know fuel economy is getting better and regulation is getting tighter to make profit upgrading ahead of time. So what they did is to upgrade just enough capacity to refine only enough for the local market. This has 2 effects: limit supply so they can make money, especially during down time, accidents, seasonal changes, etc, and minimize their investment.
If you look from that angle, Delta's decision to buy a refinery to make sure it supply a lot of jet fuel is a smart way to force the market in one direction (jet fuel) instead of the others (export low grade diesel or tearing it down). What I was surprised to see is they didn't work with other airlines to create a joint company to reduce the risk.
If you look from that angle, Delta's decision to buy a refinery to make sure it supply a lot of jet fuel is a smart way to force the market in one direction (jet fuel) instead of the others (export low grade diesel or tearing it down). What I was surprised to see is they didn't work with other airlines to create a joint company to reduce the risk.
Very interesting observation. A lot of the US feedstock is also extremely high in Sulfur. It wouldn't surprise me that the economics of that oil make it simply easier to export for profit than it is to clean up. The refining side of the market is not high margin by any means. I don't think the limited supply is in any way a conspiracy. It is probably more of a result that the evaluation of selling the fuel overseas for a known profit is better than spending millions on upgrades to enable production that often sells for a loss in the US market.
Delta probably didn't corroborate with other airlines for a few reasons. Creating a joint venture has many legal issues when between companies that are supposed to be competitors. The move is also pretty gutsy and out of the box. Many of the other airlines could be on the sidelines waiting for this to fall flat. I am not aware of the details of this issue, so these are much more broad strokes...
Delta probably didn't corroborate with other airlines for a few reasons. Creating a joint venture has many legal issues when between companies that are supposed to be competitors. The move is also pretty gutsy and out of the box. Many of the other airlines could be on the sidelines waiting for this to fall flat. I am not aware of the details of this issue, so these are much more broad strokes...
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: tgferg67
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
We need more refining capacity. Drowning in crude doesn't help if the green weenies keep us from processing the stuff into something we can use.
U.S refineries exported record amounts of gasoline and diesel - how do we not have enough capacity?
We've got those "special standards" here. How many different "gas brews" are required here? They're not that fussy elsewhere. In New England, they can't supply enough low sulfur heating oil to go around.
Heating oil is red diesel without a road tax. By the time it is in your tank it has cost as much as diesel. So people here in heating oil country burn wood. I havent seen so much fire wood until lately. So where is is your carbon foot print now?
Originally Posted By: tgferg67
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
We need more refining capacity. Drowning in crude doesn't help if the green weenies keep us from processing the stuff into something we can use.
U.S refineries exported record amounts of gasoline and diesel - how do we not have enough capacity?
We've got those "special standards" here. How many different "gas brews" are required here? They're not that fussy elsewhere. In New England, they can't supply enough low sulfur heating oil to go around.
Heating oil is red diesel without a road tax. By the time it is in your tank it has cost as much as diesel. So people here in heating oil country burn wood. I havent seen so much fire wood until lately. So where is is your carbon foot print now?
"Topic: US could be OPEC independent in 5 years"
OPEC's new strategy the keep us dependent
Quote:
...new investments by the Middle East in U.S. energy indicate that even if America could eventually rely on domestically produced energy, Middle Eastern companies intend to maintain a foothold in the American energy production and everything else that it entails.
OPEC's new strategy the keep us dependent
Quote:
...new investments by the Middle East in U.S. energy indicate that even if America could eventually rely on domestically produced energy, Middle Eastern companies intend to maintain a foothold in the American energy production and everything else that it entails.
I like the fact that they are investing their money into our economy.
And if the econuts would allow more refineries to be built here, it would be much harder for foreign entities to control such large amounts of domestic refining capacity.
And if the econuts would allow more refineries to be built here, it would be much harder for foreign entities to control such large amounts of domestic refining capacity.
I don't mind other countries investing in the US, I just wish the ones doing the investing were countries like Japan, Canada, Germany, etc. Investors like Saudi Arabia and China are totalitarian countries that are often at odds with US foreign policy.
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