Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives

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I have used MMO continuously in the gas for my old glorified tractor engine'd Jeep 4.0 for over two years. I get better mpg, smoother running and my last UOA showed aluminum at 1 ppm, this in an engine known for piston skirt issues. I believe this is due to the UCL benefits of MMO. That's my conclusion, I can't prove it correct nor can anyone prove it wrong either.

It works for me, I like it, its cheap and I won't gas the Jeep without MMO. I don't care if somebody else likes it or not as long as I'm still able to buy it, I will. I experimented briefly with TCW3 but I prefer the cleaning benefits of MMO so I stick with that.

When used in the crankcase the oil always notably darkens within a couple hundred miles as well, my use there has been sporadic however.
 
This is absolutely why people who are concerned about their vehicles utilize a UCL: to counter the effects of corrosive ethanol. All other benefits are a just a plus, especially the fuel pump.

Originally Posted By: Clevy
As far as upper cylinder lubes go I cannot say for sure whether they affect wear in any measurable way however I still use tc-w3 in my fuel just in case. It costs pennies to treat a tankful and hasn't hurt yet. I've never had a fouled plug or anything.
Tc-w3 has detergents in it and because it's an oil it may help fuel pumps and rubber seals exposed to the drying effects of ethanol.
Either way its cheap and in my mind its not hurting anything.
 
Originally Posted By: Finz
Originally Posted By: turtlevette


I assume you're running much less than a 50:1 ratio as used in outboard motors. Does it produce that stinky exhaust that outboards have? What is the threshold?



Personally, I'm running 1 oz to every 5 gals of petrol... 600:1


^^^Yes, a four stroke, ICE in an automobile might not even run on a 50:1 ratio!
 
Originally Posted By: Challenger71
This is absolutely why people who are concerned about their vehicles utilize a UCL: to counter the effects of corrosive ethanol.


Challenger raises a good point. I'm not so sure ethanol is really corrosive, but it sure doesn't provide much lubrication either. In the last 50 years or so, vehicles have used leaded gasoline, then unleaded gasoline and now unleaded gasoline with ethanol added. A very few vehicles use LPG/CNG - just one more step along this line (our local public utility powers its fleet with LPG/CNG - some cities use LPG/CNG to power buses and other public vehicles as well).

Each of these fuels have less lubrication properties than it's predecessor. Yet, materials and technology inside the vehicle engine really hasn't changed that much in this same period.

These changes in fuels have not gone unnoticed. Even such stuffy folks as Rolls-Royce weighed in on the use of upper cylinder lubrication in their engines - this on the eve of the Aussies removing tetra-ethyl lead from consumer motor fuel. Rolls-Royce engines (and the whole vehicle, for that matter) tend to last a very long time. As I recall, Rolls' engineers decided that UCL was not required. You may note that many Rolls-Royce engines run at very low compression, in the range of ~6:1 - solid but stuffy. Your 11:1 compression-ratio hot-dog dream car may not be as forgiving.

And, several companies, such as AMPCO still market inverse oilers or lubricators - mostly aimed at the LPG/CNG vehicles. If you want your engine to last but there's no lube in the fuel, they might be worth a look.

At the opposite end of the oily-fuel scale is diesel. I used to have a civil engineer friend who drove an ancient Mercedes 180D. The car had about 500,000 miles on the clock and he was still on the original, never opened engine. It was going to run forever, the fact of which he bragged about endlessly (to everyone's annoyance). Why not? High quality construction plus super conservative engineering plus a fuel which provided great upper cylinder lubrication - it ought to run forever.
 
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: Challenger71
This is absolutely why people who are concerned about their vehicles utilize a UCL: to counter the effects of corrosive ethanol.


Challenger raises a good point. I'm not so sure ethanol is really corrosive, but it sure doesn't provide much lubrication either. In the last 50 years or so, vehicles have used leaded gasoline, then unleaded gasoline and now unleaded gasoline with ethanol added. A very few vehicles use LPG/CNG - just one more step along this line (our local public utility powers its fleet with LPG/CNG - some cities use LPG/CNG to power buses and other public vehicles as well).

Each of these fuels have less lubrication properties than it's predecessor. Yet, materials and technology inside the vehicle engine really hasn't changed that much in this same period.

These changes in fuels have not gone unnoticed. Even such stuffy folks as Rolls-Royce weighed in on the use of upper cylinder lubrication in their engines - this on the eve of the Aussies removing tetra-ethyl lead from consumer motor fuel. Rolls-Royce engines (and the whole vehicle, for that matter) tend to last a very long time. As I recall, Rolls' engineers decided that UCL was not required. You may note that many Rolls-Royce engines run at very low compression, in the range of ~6:1 - solid but stuffy. Your 11:1 compression-ratio hot-dog dream car may not be as forgiving.

And, several companies, such as AMPCO still market inverse oilers or lubricators - mostly aimed at the LPG/CNG vehicles. If you want your engine to last but there's no lube in the fuel, they might be worth a look.

At the opposite end of the oily-fuel scale is diesel. I used to have a civil engineer friend who drove an ancient Mercedes 180D. The car had about 500,000 miles on the clock and he was still on the original, never opened engine. It was going to run forever, the fact of which he bragged about endlessly (to everyone's annoyance). Why not? High quality construction plus super conservative engineering plus a fuel which provided great upper cylinder lubrication - it ought to run forever.


There are plenty of LEO and limo Crown Vic's and Town Cars with obscene mileage on them that have never seen a UCL in their lives as another data point.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
There are plenty of LEO and limo Crown Vic's and Town Cars with obscene mileage on them that have never seen a UCL in their lives as another data point.


There is a lot of truth to that.
I think a lot has to do with oils and piston ring designs and materials many years ago when these types of products may have really helped.

Personally I want as little oil based products going through the cat as possible.
JMHO.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
There are plenty of LEO and limo Crown Vic's and Town Cars with obscene mileage on them that have never seen a UCL in their lives as another data point.


That well could be, particularly if these vehicles were used in taxi or limo service. For many such vehicles, the engine is rarely turned off, except maybe to refuel, for maintenance, driver runs in to a lunch counter, etc. The number of 'cold starts' is really quite small.The big V-8's are really never strained. And... the engines lasts forever. I don't mean to knock Crown Vic's, but I've never been that impressed with them otherwise. I've knew Mercedes-Benz and Crown Victoria, you're no Mercedes-Benz. Back in the real world, 'cold starts' are a fact of life.

As for LEO vehicles, they don't last so long. Even if the engine holds up, the rest of the vehicle has a hard life. Watch your local auto auctions - LEO vehicles rarely go for much. I'm not counting the Chief's car or Captain's car, recently purchased new, rarely driven, offered to him at a sweetheart price upon his retirement, etc.
 
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
There are plenty of LEO and limo Crown Vic's and Town Cars with obscene mileage on them that have never seen a UCL in their lives as another data point.


That well could be, particularly if these vehicles were used in taxi or limo service. For many such vehicles, the engine is rarely turned off, except maybe to refuel, for maintenance, driver runs in to a lunch counter, etc. The number of 'cold starts' is really quite small.The big V-8's are really never strained. And... the engines lasts forever. I don't mean to knock Crown Vic's, but I've never been that impressed with them otherwise. I've knew Mercedes-Benz and Crown Victoria, you're no Mercedes-Benz. Back in the real world, 'cold starts' are a fact of life.

As for LEO vehicles, they don't last so long. Even if the engine holds up, the rest of the vehicle has a hard life. Watch your local auto auctions - LEO vehicles rarely go for much. I'm not counting the Chief's car or Captain's car, recently purchased new, rarely driven, offered to him at a sweetheart price upon his retirement, etc.


Around here the LEO Vic's usually get bought up by cab companies and retired somewhere north of 500,000Km when the bodies take them to scrap yard.

And don't worry, I wasn't comparing a Vic to a Benz
wink.gif
I was just pointing out that in these applications Ford's Modular engine seems to do just fine racking up obscene mileage without a UCL. The "Million Mile van" is another one of those, a 5.4L Modular in a van used as a courier.

And while I'm sure these vehicles don't get a lot of cold starts, the reason for that is because of how much they are used, which is of course how they get the mileage they do on them. Most cars up here go to the scrap yard either due to transmission failure and age, the body rotting off, being in an accident or complete and utter neglect (running the engine out of oil). A properly maintained vehicle with an engine that doesn't have some sort of predisposition for self destruction doesn't go to the wreckers because somebody wore the engine out by not running a UCL
smile.gif


A couple examples:

Town Car:
http://www.autotrader.ca/a/Lincoln/Town+Car/MARKHAM/Ontario/19_7577085_/

653,000Km on it (405,000 miles)

Town Car:
http://www.autotrader.ca/a/Lincoln/Town+Car/BRAMPTON/Ontario/19_7698930_/

495,000Km on it (307,000 miles)
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
There are plenty of LEO and limo Crown Vic's and Town Cars with obscene mileage on them that have never seen a UCL in their lives as another data point.


There is a lot of truth to that.
I think a lot has to do with oils and piston ring designs and materials many years ago when these types of products may have really helped.

Personally I want as little oil based products going through the cat as possible.
JMHO.



Yes, and they have coated skirts on the pistons too.

We've never run a UCL in anything, not even our antique boat engines or Ford 8N tractor (which is still going). Just good oil changed at reasonable intervals.
 
Because a taxi can run and achieve 500k miles is significant in it's own right and deserves some merit. However because vehicle gets that far does not mean it operates at optimum. All we know is that it runs well enough and thats about it. Especially with taxis I see around here with their shot valve seals. I try to achieve optimum as best that I can for my vehicles and when it comes to fuel I try to apply a buffer to ethanol with the use of a UCL for the entire fuel system.
 
Originally Posted By: Challenger71
Because a taxi can run and achieve 500k miles is significant in it's own right and deserves some merit. However because vehicle gets that far does not mean it operates at optimum. All we know is that it runs well enough and thats about it. Especially with taxis I see around here with their shot valve seals. I try to achieve optimum as best that I can for my vehicles and when it comes to fuel I try to apply a buffer to ethanol with the use of a UCL for the entire fuel system.


Yeah but a UCL isn't going to prevent those valve seals from failing either
wink.gif


I'm not an engine guru, but I've torn a number of them down (or been involved in the tear down process) for performance upgrades and stuff, mostly SBF's but a buddy of mine has had a few SBC's that we've been into too. Even the very high mileage examples, run on just good oil and fuel, the SBF's still had visible cross-hatching on the walls, the pistons were pristine....etc.
21.gif
I'm not sure what a UCL would have prevented in a situation like that, because it certainly wouldn't be wear, since there wasn't any, LOL!

Perhaps as Trav alluded to, there are some engines that benefit from it. My experience has shown that I've never owned or worked on one of those engines though
wink.gif
 
And it's important to note that taxis in my day (SBC engines) were on propane, which was considered substantially "worse" than unleaded fuel from a lubricating standpoint. There was no feasible way to use an UCL, and the vehicles went hundreds of thousands of kilometres.

I'm not going to say that a UCL is harmful. I'm sure the contrary is true. But, does it make a real difference?
 
Anyone care to explain how an engine the consumed a qt. of oil every 1,500 miles goes to a qt. of oil every 1,800-1,900 miles and the only thing that changed was the addition of a UCL? Same oil, same filter, same PCV valve, same OCI. As Trav alluded to there are some engines that can benefit from it.
27.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Yes, and they have coated skirts on the pistons too.

We've never run a UCL in anything, not even our antique boat engines or Ford 8N tractor (which is still going). Just good oil changed at reasonable intervals.


I never used it either but i was thinking about these old cars (20's- 50's) that many people installed the inverse oilers on.

I dont know about the oil and fuels available back in those times and the effects they had on the top end.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
And it's important to note that taxis in my day (SBC engines) were on propane, which was considered substantially "worse" than unleaded fuel from a lubricating standpoint. There was no feasible way to use an UCL, and the vehicles went hundreds of thousands of kilometres.


Ehhh? Why no feasible way? I can't imagine an engine on which an oiler could not be installed. And, you could always add a UCL to the fuel tank, although that might be unlikely for a taxi.

As for taxis running propane, that was fairly unusual - a few very large cities with serious pollution issues. Taxis tend to rack up high mileage and last a long time because the engines rarely cools down, and most taxis are driven in a fairly conservative manner. Plus, fleet owners tend to take maintenance quite seriously.
 
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Why no feasible way? I can't imagine an engine on which an oiler could not be installed. And, you could always add a UCL to the fuel tank, although that might be unlikely for a taxi.

My fleet was on propane for most years, so dumping a little 2 cycle oil into the fuel tank wasn't an option.
wink.gif


Propane taxis were very common here at one time given how cheap the fuel was at the time.
 
I had an oiler on my propane vehicle...It already had valve seat recession when I got it, so I wanted it to not get worse.
 
A bit like this kit...
http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-...rom=60402#Cross

I made a "T" piece out of brass tubing that fit in the PCV line to the Q-Jet, and fitted the oiler kit...worked on the premise that the carb manifold would be careful to distribute PCV fumes more evenly tan a hole drilled in the manifold.

You "tune" it to the number of drops per minute of UCL (flashlube is a lead replacement additive, we only lost lead in 1990ish, having unleaded and low lead since 1987).

Lubricates only while there is vacuum across the throttle plate, but that's most times in a car's life.
 
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