Updated MB 229.5 spec?

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I was playing around with the Lubrizol oil performance comparison tool and noticed that there are two versions of MB 229.5 (and 229.51) spec: 2009 and 2012. The 2012 version seems to offer better wear protection and aftertreatment compatibility, yet the SA limit didn't seem to change, so how are they achieving this? Also, I'm not happy with this MB spec naming/numbering convention. If you're going to update the spec, you should give it a new number. Otherwise, when you go oil shopping, you'll see 229.5 listed on the label, but you won't know if it's the 2009 version or the 2012 version.
 

JAG

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Maybe they are doing a phosphorus volatility test now like ILSAC GF-5 has. I'm glad they've improved the spec but I too wish there was a way to know which version oils meet.
 
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
I was playing around with the Lubrizol oil performance comparison tool and noticed that there are two versions of MB 229.5 (and 229.51) spec: 2009 and 2012. The 2012 version seems to offer better wear protection and aftertreatment compatibility, yet the SA limit didn't seem to change, so how are they achieving this? Also, I'm not happy with this MB spec naming/numbering convention. If you're going to update the spec, you should give it a new number. Otherwise, when you go oil shopping, you'll see 229.5 listed on the label, but you won't know if it's the 2009 version or the 2012 version.
Not sure what your issue with the numbering is as 229.5 is clearly different than 229.51. It is standard practice to update things and add some extra numbers. Like when you update software on a iPad or similar. I personally thing the APi is overly simplified, but there you go.
 

Quattro Pete

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Originally Posted By: bigjl
Not sure what your issue with the numbering is as 229.5 is clearly different than 229.51.
Did you even bother to click on the link? 229.5 is a gasoline spec. 229.51 is a diesel spec. That's perfectly clear. I have no problem there. What I'm saying is that there is now 229.5 (2009) and 229.5 (2012). If you see 229.5 listed on an oil bottle, how do you know if it's the 2009 version or the 2012 version? You would hope that it's the latest, but that's just it - hope. By the way, ACEA does the same thing... there is A3/B4, but it could be 2012, 2010, 2008, 2007, 2004, or 2002. Again, the oil mfg is supposed to adhere to the latest, supposed to. If you find an oil on the shelf that happens to be 1 or 2 years old, how do you really know?
 
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Not sure what your issue with the numbering is as 229.5 is clearly different than 229.51.
Did you even bother to click on the link? 229.5 is a gasoline spec. 229.51 is a diesel spec. That's perfectly clear. I have no problem there. What I'm saying is that there is now 229.5 (2009) and 229.5 (2012). If you see 229.5 listed on an oil bottle, how do you know if it's the 2009 version or the 2012 version? You would hope that it's the latest, but that's just it - hope. By the way, ACEA does the same thing... there is A3/B4, but it could be 2012, 2010, 2008, 2007, 2004, or 2002. Again, the oil mfg is supposed to adhere to the latest, supposed to. If you find an oil on the shelf that happens to be 1 or 2 years old, how do you really know?
Most of the time there will be a date code, two digits, if the oil spec has been updated. I don't see the issue reay though as both will work surely? Your link didn't work for me as I am using a phone at the moment. But if you reread your post you will see why I have taken your post the way i have. But if you were, though rather unlikely in the UK where retail uses the "just in time" method of stock control, to find two year old oil on the shelf then it would surely be the older spec. Retailers and even wholesalers in the UK tend not to stock more than they sell in a given period. This ensuring stock is always as upto date as it needs to be. For example 3/4 months ago New Life SM was on the shelf at the nearby Costco. The SN has only just come out and that is now what is on the shelf, there is no SM. But ACEA specs will have year code if needed. They are more accurate than API, I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
 
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Quattro Pete

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Originally Posted By: bigjl
Most of the time there will be a date code, two digits, if the oil spec has been updated.
But even if you do decipher the date code, you still can't be sure which spec version they were complying with at that time.
 
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Well if the oil was produced in 2011 then it won't be the newer spec. If the oil was produced in 2013 then I would suspect it would meet the new specs. I don't know what it is like in the retail sector in the US but it isn't common for retailers to try to misrepresent things for sale as the Sale of Goods Act would prevent it. Since the 2009 spec still works I don't see what the issue is, it won't suddenly kill the engine. This isn't the first time ACEA specs have been updated and it hasn't been an issue before.
 

Quattro Pete

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Anway, this wasn't really the main point of this thread. I was more curious on how they've improved aftertreatment compatibility without reducing the SA limit.
 
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Yes, I agree that it won't cause a catastrophe, but you know us BITOGers - we're anal about these things. smile
Yes, indeed. Anal and proud!
 

Quattro Pete

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Garak, yes, that thought has crossed my mind as well. One would have to dig through the 2012 and older ACEA A3/B4 specs to see if anything's changed in terms of wear. Lubrizol's tools isn't reflecting ACEA 2012 specs as of yet.
 
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Some blenders, like Liqui Moly, used to put the year code after the specification - e.g. ACEA A3/B4-04. But on much of their new labeling, it just lists ACEA A3/B4 and it's anyone's guess what year spec that oil meets. I completely agree with you though. Average Joe can't even follow simplified API specs, let alone use the correct manufacturer spec with the year code. This just makes it more confusing than ever. I suppose the approach Mercedes is taking is just use 229.5, regardless of whether its '09 or '12.
 

Quattro Pete

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Yep. Presumably the differences are minimal. If it was something major, they would have probably called it by a different number, such as 229.6.
 
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I don't recall if there was a difference in wear either, QP. I had glanced at the latest ACEA updates, but didn't pay close enough attention to that. And yep, the tool isn't updated yet, so you may have to do it the hard way and compare the written specs.
 
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Lubrizol Relative Performace Tools data concerning SA levels of MB 229.5 are not correct. Under y.2009 and y. 2012 SA "1 to 1.5wt.%" should be : "0,8 to 1,5wt.%."for 2009 and "1.0 to 1.6wt.%" for 2012. This makes your question even more puzzling,Quattro Pete... Proofs: Lubricant Handbook Mercedes Oil Specifications v.2012 As of 2012, MB changed SA requirement to "1.0 to 1.6wt.%" and minimum 10mgKOH/g TBN.Some om646 pass/fail wear limits changed too(more severe) in 2012(cam wear; engine sludge). Acc.to Afton's document, in 2009 the min. 8mgKOH/g requirement was still valid. ACEA raised it to min.10mgKOH/g for A3/B4 oils in 2010 Oil Sequences. ACEA:
Quote:
"The YEAR numbers for ACEA Sequence is intended only for industry use and indicates the year of implementation of that severity level for the particular category. "
If we look at ACEA schedule , oils that had been certified against ACEA 2004 sequences were allowed for marketing up until 31st of December 2009! This is quite a long period...meanwhile some major changes were implemented concerning ACEA 2008 categories ! And during the whole 2009, oils certified against 3 different sequences(2004;2007 and 2008) might have been on the shelves ! On the other hand,some OEM approval categories are quite short-termed( 2years for BMW and Porsche, 3 years for VW and "5 years at the latest" for MB). GPN oil Synt 5w-40 Ineo MC3 229.51 Quartz 9000 0w-30 229.5 These are interesting too- three different approvals for an oil using one specific "recipe"---Infineum's IME 0505148-A ? Posrche A40 Approval BMW LL-04 Approval MB 229.51 Approval 229.52 is coming...
 
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I'm not sure how it is in Europe, but here, we have very few oils that rely on ACEA specs alone, without having a BMW, Benz, and/or VW/Audi spec to go along with them. Some of the oil companies that do are forthright enough to actually print the year of the ACEA specification they claim, too.
 
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Most of the time there will be a date code, two digits, if the oil spec has been updated.
But even if you do decipher the date code, you still can't be sure which spec version they were complying with at that time.
Actually.you can. The ACEA has specific guidance with regards to which spec can be claimed within X-time. It's stated in their oil test sequences. IIRC
 

Quattro Pete

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Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
But even if you do decipher the date code, you still can't be sure which spec version they were complying with at that time.
Actually.you can. The ACEA has specific guidance with regards to which spec can be claimed within X-time. It's stated in their oil test sequences. IIRC
Yeah, but did you read what Rollins wrote above?
Quote:
If we look at ACEA schedule , oils that had been certified against ACEA 2004 sequences were allowed for marketing up until 31st of December 2009! This is quite a long period...meanwhile some major changes were implemented concerning ACEA 2008 categories ! And during the whole 2009, oils certified against 3 different sequences(2004;2007 and 2008) might have been on the shelves !
 
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