Update: Mobil 1 Group III

[salesrep]

"I believe they sale just a few % from a total production volume through auto parts and other retail stores. Losing on store sales or even withdraw all oil from store shelves wouldn’t hurt em much."

Let us not forget where big oil get the vast majority of their gross profits.

 

[trixman]

You know there are some who do pay $6 for group III castrol syntec. (I'm not one of them!) The Mobil I users will have make there own decision about that now.

Personally I would feel deceived.

 

[Mickey_M]

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Mobil fought it cause that would bring so many other players into the synthetic market and perhaps was not a true synthetic, at that time.

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I don't think it's fair to say "Mobil fought it".

Mobil, which made PAOs, Group IIIs, polyolesters, and a slew of other Group V stocks, asked for a clarification. Mobil followed the European practice, which included Group IIIs under mineral oils and PAOs under synthetics.

The decision was that Group IIIs were "synthetic".

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IF m1 is using less pao and more g3 it is because they have determined that there end product achieves the desired results at a lower cost in the highly competitive engine oil market. No fault here (imo) The rules say that g3 is synthetic and performs as such.

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I have read or seen nothing to indicate the presence of GIII in anything other than the two EP viscosities Tom NJ took a look at. Whether they represent normal production or a manufacturing expedient when something went SNAFU in the regular production is not clear.




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[buster]

Another update:

I had two Mobil techs assure me that M1 was still PAO based. Joe said it was "Group IV and V only". Jay said it was primarily PAO. Jay told me that when they saw the rumor going around they talked to the chemist who said that it's still PAO. The chemist also said the test was wrong and that it's very hard to determine using a GC test.

 

[buster]

Off topic: he brought up NASCAR and OEM fill. I told him that I'm sure XOM pays good $$ to get "Official oil of NASCAR and OEM fill". He said that is what most think but it's not the case. He said that 3/4 of NASCAR were already using Mobil 1 before it became the Official oil. The NASCAR teams pay for the oil and it's not a freeby.

 

[Volvohead]

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Let us not forget where big oil get the vast majority of their gross profits.

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Very true, Mark. Motor oil revenues are a fly speck next to what they pull in peddling gasoline.

Some of the posts on the recent controversy are absolute masterpieces of intellectual contortion. Blind allegance certainly does devour credibility.

 

[Terry]

Volvo and Mark you are right on. This site was originally setup as a no-spin zone. The fact is the average lube consumer cannot have access to everything there is to know about lubes. However YOU do have access to a common denominator in performance and tuning and that is a simple well interpreted oil analysis report for YOUR car and chosen oil.

Blind allegience is driven by the pocket book and who fills it. Another good thing about be a independent testing source in this speck of business in the majors eyes!

BRAND BE ****ED, quality and performance of chemistry are my targets, the maker of that products gets my nod.

Making money and dedication and devotion to the employer are important but I work for myself and WANT THE BEST FOR MY CUSTOMERS.

The lube makers would do well to remember who their customers are. The internet may leverage the little guy a bit more, especially the informed one,even if he is operating on limited and obfuscated info.
Terry

 

[Volvohead]

I wish it were so Terry. But let's be honest. The bigger blenders and refiners really don't care too much about us. We're a very insignificant fringe.

Most folks buy this juice based on what grandpa and the TV told them.

 

[Tones]

Buster, did you ask about the EP specifically? I hear these questions and replies and they bandy the label "Mobil 1" about as if it covers the entire line, but lets not forget that there are the two different "Mobil 1" products that we know for a fact are formulated differently.

 

[Tom NJ]

And more specifically ask about the current EP 5w30. I would challenge anyone who denies the significant mineral (Group III) content in that one.

Tom

 

[G-MAN]

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Buster, did you ask about the EP specifically? I hear these questions and replies and they bandy the label "Mobil 1" about as if it covers the entire line, but lets not forget that there are the two different "Mobil 1" products that we know for a fact are formulated differently.

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My theory: Mobil 1 Extended Performance is made up of primarily Group III with a relatively LARGE dose of XOM's very high vis SuperSyn PAO.

If you remember the PDS on SuperSyn PAO back before they changed the name of it, this was precisely one application that XOM recommended this hi vis PAO for, namely, to boost the viscometrics of a Group III PCMO.

 

[Al]

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The issue has never been whether or not Mobil 1 still contains PAO. Clearly it does. The issue is does it also contain Group III. And if Mobil can say that Mobil 1 contains PAO, they should be equally candid about Group III and say whether or not it contains any. To me, their silence on the matter speaks volumes.

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Very well put and goes right to the heart of the matter. They don't mind saying it "utilizes" PAO but they refuse to say if it "utilizes" gr III. Why can everyone not see this? Am I just that smart?

 

[Hermann]

Better than stonewalled, the boys at XOM are f-ing with you. They are sitting in their offices laughing there asses off.

 

[tripleM]

I've been to the AAP the last couple weeks & stood next to some1 who has bought a Mobil 1 Extended Performance oil. Both times I wanted to say something about the controversy but both time I backed down.

These are the 99.999% of the population that don't know all about this & EOM is counting on that demographic...Not the ppl on this board.

 

[Al]

O.K. I just wrote this:

On your website: www.exxonmobilsynthetics.com/Public_Products/Synthetics/Synthetic_Lubricants_and_Fluids/Worldwide/Sales_and_Support/Syn_Sales_FAQs.asp

You said:

"Fully synthetic engine oils generally contain 70% to 80% PAO, 5% to 10 % Group V base stocks and the remaining portion are additives. However, some engine oil marketers have elected to use higher ratios."

Is it still true that Mobil I contains 70% to 80% PAO?

Thanks
Al

I realize I am not asking them if it contains GR II. But does it contain 70% to 80% PAO. I can live with some GR III but I want it to be this definition. If its not I would say they are liable for false advertising.

 

[Mickey_M]

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Blind allegance certainly does devour credibility.

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You've got to be itching for a fight to take two unverified GCs of two viscosities of one formula and turn it into a writ of condemnation for moral turpitude for one of the pioneers of the synthetic motor oil business, one whose used oil analysis are arguably as good or better than most.



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[Mickey_M]

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Better than stonewalled, the boys at XOM are f-ing with you. They are sitting in their offices laughing there asses off.

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Well, let's put it this way: they're earning a living, this discussion is generating heat without light or revenue.



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[buster]

I don't think many of us are brand loyal. We use the brands that work well and have had a great reputation, such as Mobil 1. We use what works.

I didn't specify Mobil 1 / Mobil 1 Extended Performance. He just said that once this rumor hit the web, the tech guys asked the chemist or a chemist how the test could accurately determine the composition of M1. Both Jay and Joe said it's a majority PAO based oil. Joe said it was a Group IV/V oil.

Lets see what results George comes up with....it's all speculation at this point. I have 100% confidence in Tom's results based on those two samples.

 

[Mickey_M]

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BRAND BE ****ED, quality and performance of chemistry are my targets, the maker of that products gets my nod.

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I don't think the chemistry means a whit unless it translates into performance.

Based on what you've said in other threads, the Mobil 1 Extended Performance formula is not one of the stars in terms of wear and performance, so based on that and the used oil analysis it's probably not going to be the choice of anyone who spends a few minutes in the used oil analysis. I know keeping a high TBN for 15k is not on my list for Christmas.

That says nothing about other Mobil 1 and Delvac 1 formulas.

A couple, like the motorcycle oils, don't have enough UOA examples to make any generalizations about.

For those who want PAO, POE, AN, PDQ, ZDDP, or any other basestock, blendstock, or additive in whatever combinations they desire, there are custom blenders (some of whom advertise on the board) that ought to be able to whip up whatever they want at a commensurate price, somewhat more than $4.89 a quart on sale.

And someone like yourself should be able to tell them how it performs.



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[Mickey_M]

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And more specifically ask about the current EP 5w30. I would challenge anyone who denies the significant mineral (Group III) content in that one.

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Remember, Group III is "mineral" in much the same way PAO is "mineral". They both begin with crude and undergo fundamental molecular changes.

At this point, in all scientific honesty, you don't know whether your datapoints are flukes or representative of the Mobil 1 Extended Performance production as a whole.

And neither says a thing about any other Mobil 1 formula.

Since in most applications a good Group III works about the same as a PAO, I'd say the issue is whether any Mobil 1 formula is showing a deterioration in performance as compared to last month, last year, or a couple of years ago.




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