U think we will ever see a 0W20 which.....?

[Best F100]

I was looking at the SAE viscosity range for 20 wt oils. It runs from a 5.6 -
Questions:
1) In the next 10 years, is there anyone in the BITOG house, who thinks someone will market a 20 wt oil, that is in the 6 - 7 cst@100C range? (operating temperature).

2) What is the technical reason we don't have anything on the market like that now? (Other than $$$$ to make it - but even that is not an excuse, because we have over $10/qt oils you can buy now). I would think, there would be some fuel economy benefit in offering one. I can just imagine, all the Toyota Prius owners would jump at the chance to eke out 1 more MPG. - if they could buy a low viscosity oil like this.

Full disclosure:
I managed to get my hands on 12 qts of Havoline Synthetic 0W20 this summer. Its specs are listed at 41.0 cst@40C & 8.0 cst@100C. I thought those were pretty darn low -at both temperatures. (Maybe the lowest you can buy at 40C also). Those quarts were dropped off at my front doorstep one day, after complaining to Chevron I couldn't find this oil for sale anywhere. The first 6 qts are going in a big old 2011 Ford Taurus this winter. I did get a high of 32 mpg on a long trip using Motorcraft 5W20 Full Synthetic using it, this summer.

 

[bepperb]

I assume nobody wants to market a 20wt oil that shears below that spec.

Really, I would assume at some point there will be a grade below 20 in that range. API has somewhat gotten around that by requiring different efficiency specs for 0-20 and 5-20, but IMO this isn't the greatest way to do this.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Best F100
1) In the next 10 years, is there anyone in the BITOG house, who thinks someone will market a 20 wt oil, that is in the 6 - 7 cst@100C range? (operating temperature).

If not lower. Honda is working on something they call a 0w-10, which is a classification that doesn't even exist yet.


Originally Posted By: Best F100
2) What is the technical reason we don't have anything on the market like that now? (Other than $$$$ to make it - but even that is not an excuse, because we have over $10/qt oils you can buy now). I would think, there would be some fuel economy benefit in offering one. I can just imagine, all the Toyota Prius owners would jump at the chance to eke out 1 more MPG. - if they could buy a low viscosity oil like this.

I bet one reason is volatility. It's hard to make such a thin oil that doesn't cook off easily -- unless you use synthetic base stocks, which can be expensive.

 

[JHZR2]

yes to a lower viscosity, but within the limits of volatility given hotter and higher stress/power density engines. That will dictate where the optimum lies, or else there will be more oil coolers or something to effect it.

 

[needsducktape]

...and someday a 0w-1

When every drop of gas counts.

haha

 

[JeremyInMT]

Originally Posted By: needsducktape
...and someday a 0w-1

When every drop of gas counts.

haha


couldn't you just use straight 0 then?

 

[addyguy]

I'm wondering the EXACT same thing as the OP.

Manufacturers are talking about 0W-10 and 0W-15 oils, why not just make use of the visc. range inherent in the 20-weight?

 

[Rand]

they are talking about splitting the 20weight range to put in the new ranges

 

[river_rat]

Originally Posted By: Best F100
In the next 10 years, is there anyone in the BITOG house, who thinks someone will market a 20 wt oil, that is in the 6 - 7 cst@100C range? (operating temperature).

WolfsHead 5W-20 synthetic is 6.8.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: river_rat
Originally Posted By: Best F100
In the next 10 years, is there anyone in the BITOG house, who thinks someone will market a 20 wt oil, that is in the 6 - 7 cst@100C range? (operating temperature).

WolfsHead 5W-20 synthetic is 6.8.

The WolfsHead KV100 spec' is undoubtedly a typo'.
It is likely 8.6cSt.
The reason is the minimum HTHS vis' for a 20wt oil is 2.6cP and you can't make a 20wt oil with a KV100 spec' much below 8.0cSt and still retain a HTHS vis of 2.6cP.

 

[Papa Bear]

0W-0 ....

 

[Best F100]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: river_rat
Originally Posted By: Best F100
In the next 10 years, is there anyone in the BITOG house, who thinks someone will market a 20 wt oil, that is in the 6 - 7 cst@100C range? (operating temperature).

WolfsHead 5W-20 synthetic is 6.8.

The WolfsHead KV100 spec' is undoubtedly a typo'.
It is likely 8.6cSt.
The reason is the minimum HTHS vis' for a 20wt oil is 2.6cP and you can't make a 20wt oil with a KV100 spec' much below 8.0cSt and still retain a HTHS vis of 2.6cP.








I would think Red Line Oil (maybe Amsoil), would be the FIRST company to market a 7 something cst@100C, 0W20 oil to market. Their 20 & 30 wt oils have HT/HS a bit higher than everyone else. I know I would be interested in buying such a product.

 

[A_Harman]

Red Line's 20WT racing oil is 7.4cSt @ 100C, so they are already there. The trouble with RL's race oils are that they have way too much zddp to use in a car with catalytic converters, they have low detergency and require frequent changing, and the viscosity indices are low. Interestingly, its NOACK volatility number is still only 6%.

RL's 10WT is a 0w10 that has a kinematic viscosity of 5.2cSt @100C.

The API has been considering new High-Temperature viscosity ratings of 5, 10, and 15 for the past few years, but have not settled on specifications. They are not discussing adding new kinematic viscosity ranges, but only lower HTHS specs:
20 is the current lowest grade, and has a minimum HTHS spec of 2.6cP.
15 would be 2.3cP min.
10 would be 2.0 min.
5 would be 1.7 min.
Or something like that.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Best F100
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: river_rat
Originally Posted By: Best F100




I would think Red Line Oil (maybe Amsoil), would be the FIRST company to market a 7 something cst@100C, 0W20 oil to market. Their 20 & 30 wt oils have HT/HS a bit higher than everyone else. I know I would be interested in buying such a product.

There is a fundamental flaw with your question and that is the kinematic viscosity spec' is not particularly important. It is the HTHS viscosity that is important and for a 20wt oil it must be at least 2.6cP. So it doesn't matter what the KV100 spec' is, if they have the same 2.6cP minimum for the grade they will have identical operational viscosities in an operating IC engine assuming their VIs are the same.
The issue was discussed in the following post titled;
HTHS vis trumps KV100:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2001169/

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Red Line's 20WT racing oil is 7.4cSt @ 100C, so they are already there.

With a HTHS vis' well into the 3.0cP range there is nothing 20wt about the Red Line 20WT.
Even their 10WT race oil, which I've used, has a HTHS vis greater than 2.6cP so perhaps one could consider that a true 20wt oil and it has a KV100 of 5.2cSt as you mentioned.
The low KV100 spec' relative to it's HTHS vis' tell you a lot about the oils chemistry but that's about it.


Originally Posted By: A_Harman


The API has been considering new High-Temperature viscosity ratings of 5, 10, and 15 for the past few years, but have not settled on specifications. They are not discussing adding new kinematic viscosity ranges, but only lower HTHS specs:
20 is the current lowest grade, and has a minimum HTHS spec of 2.6cP.
15 would be 2.3cP min.
10 would be 2.0 min.
5 would be 1.7 min.
Or something like that.

I'm glad you posted this proposal put forward by Honda and Toyota with the proper emphasis on HTHS viscosity to determine the grade assignment for an oil. But without HTHS vis' maximums their will always be confusion when comparing different oil chemistries, especially when trying to compare ester based oils to more conventional formulations oils.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Red Line's 20WT racing oil is 7.4cSt @ 100C, so they are already there. The trouble with RL's race oils are that they have way too much zddp to use in a car with catalytic converters, they have low detergency and require frequent changing, and the viscosity indices are low. Interestingly, its NOACK volatility number is still only 6%.


Maybe they use a MUCH higher percentage of grp. 5 base stock than their street oils (and heavier grade labeled race oils) in order to achieve the bolded above??

CATERHAM why this is?), others???

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Maybe they use a MUCH higher percentage of grp. 5 base stock than their street oils (and heavier grade labeled race oils) in order to achieve the bolded above??

When I asked RL about this, they told me that the the base oil/POE percentages are identical between the race and street oils.

 

[dparm]

Honestly, most 0w20s (excluding high-end stuff like Redline, Motul, RLI, etc) will shear down to 0w15-0w18 and then stabilize. I doubt they'd want to start there.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Honestly, most 0w20s (excluding high-end stuff like Redline, Motul, Red LineI, etc) will shear down to 0w15-0w18 and then stabilize. I doubt they'd want to start there.

Not true.
Red Line 0W-20 contains no VIIs had doesn't shear. Besides with a HTHS vis of 3.0cP it's really better thought of as a 0W-30.

Motul 0W-20 with it's HTHS vis of 2.68cP is a true 20wt oil and claims not to shear.

Red LineI 0W-20 does use some VIIs but like Red Line is really a 30wt oil with it's HTHS vis' somewhere in the 3.0cP-3.3cP range.

The true 20wt oils with HTHS viscosities of 2.6cP could easily drop into the 15wt range. The Toyota 0W-20 does shear by design about 10% so yes you could consider this a 0W-15 oil effectively.

As a grade, 20wt oils don't shear much and definitely less than heavier grades.

 

[dparm]

I said excluding those three.