hey guys like the title says can type f be run in a manual trans that specs atf. what is the diff between type f and mercon and dex.
type f fluid in manual trans
- Thread starter sevenznuf
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type f has no additives
I don't think I'd do that...
I don't think I'd do that...
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: sevenznuf
hey guys like the title says can type f be run in a manual trans that specs atf. what is the diff between type f and mercon and dex.
With a good choice of application specific Manual Transmission Fluids out there I would not put any ATF in a manual transmission.
Type F fluid does not have the specialized friction modifiers that the Dexrons, or the ATF+, or the Mercon ATF fluids have.
Type F is best used in racing ATs that need a firm and quick shift so you can get zero slippage in the clutch packs.
hey guys like the title says can type f be run in a manual trans that specs atf. what is the diff between type f and mercon and dex.
With a good choice of application specific Manual Transmission Fluids out there I would not put any ATF in a manual transmission.
Type F fluid does not have the specialized friction modifiers that the Dexrons, or the ATF+, or the Mercon ATF fluids have.
Type F is best used in racing ATs that need a firm and quick shift so you can get zero slippage in the clutch packs.
thanks for the replies, I noticed it on the shelf and just got to thinking what the difference was. thanks again
The answer is 'Yes'. That doesn't mean it's the best thing to use.
If your transmission specs an ATF (DexIII I assume?) then I'd look for a good performing fluid that matches the specs. Valvoline MaxLife would be my first choice for a DexIII ATF fluid.
Now, if the transmission uses brass in synchros, then Type-F should be a better pick for improved shifting (all else being equal).
My question is, what is the application? Most likely there is a wealth of info on the net about whatever specific transmission this is.
If your transmission specs an ATF (DexIII I assume?) then I'd look for a good performing fluid that matches the specs. Valvoline MaxLife would be my first choice for a DexIII ATF fluid.
Now, if the transmission uses brass in synchros, then Type-F should be a better pick for improved shifting (all else being equal).
My question is, what is the application? Most likely there is a wealth of info on the net about whatever specific transmission this is.
{i]With a good choice of application-specific Manual Transmission Fluids out there I would not put any ATF in a manual transmission."[/i]
And BINGO was his name-o
And BINGO was his name-o
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
{i]With a good choice of application-specific Manual Transmission Fluids out there I would not put any ATF in a manual transmission."[/i]
And BINGO was his name-o
Listen to Bror.
Quote:
Martinq: Now, if the transmission uses brass in synchros, then Type-F should be a better pick for improved shifting (all else being equal).
How does that compute?
{i]With a good choice of application-specific Manual Transmission Fluids out there I would not put any ATF in a manual transmission."[/i]
And BINGO was his name-o
Listen to Bror.
Quote:
Martinq: Now, if the transmission uses brass in synchros, then Type-F should be a better pick for improved shifting (all else being equal).
How does that compute?
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hey guys the trans is a m5od from a 1999 mazda b2500, I put mercon in it, may try redline mtl.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: sevenznuf
hey guys the trans is a m5od from a 1999 mazda b2500, I put mercon in it, may try redline mtl.
That may still be too thick.
Try Royal Purple Synchromax, or Valvoline MTF, or Pennzoil Synchromax. All would better than any ATF.
hey guys the trans is a m5od from a 1999 mazda b2500, I put mercon in it, may try redline mtl.
That may still be too thick.
Try Royal Purple Synchromax, or Valvoline MTF, or Pennzoil Synchromax. All would better than any ATF.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Try Royal Purple Synchromax, or Valvoline MTF, or Pennzoil Synchromax. All would better than any ATF.
You do know that the OEM spec fluid is Motorcraft MERCON ATF (XT-2-QDX), right?
Yes I do.
That's why I stated:
Quote:
Try Royal Purple Synchromax, or Valvoline MTF, or Pennzoil Synchromax. All would better than any ATF.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Try Royal Purple Synchromax, or Valvoline MTF, or Pennzoil Synchromax. All would better than any ATF.
You do know that the OEM spec fluid is Motorcraft MERCON ATF (XT-2-QDX), right?
Yes I do.
That's why I stated:
Quote:
Try Royal Purple Synchromax, or Valvoline MTF, or Pennzoil Synchromax. All would better than any ATF.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Martinq: Now, if the transmission uses brass in synchros, then Type-F should be a better pick for improved shifting (all else being equal).
How does that compute?
It computes by Type-F NOT having the clutch friction-modifiers which can (and often do) interfere with the brass-steel friction needed by the synchro.
So IF the transmission calls for an ATF, AND it uses brass as the friction element in the synchro, THEN Type-F ATF would be a better pick then Dexron(any), ATF+4, Mercon(any), etc.
See?
Quote:
Martinq: Now, if the transmission uses brass in synchros, then Type-F should be a better pick for improved shifting (all else being equal).
How does that compute?
It computes by Type-F NOT having the clutch friction-modifiers which can (and often do) interfere with the brass-steel friction needed by the synchro.
So IF the transmission calls for an ATF, AND it uses brass as the friction element in the synchro, THEN Type-F ATF would be a better pick then Dexron(any), ATF+4, Mercon(any), etc.
See?
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Originally Posted By: martinq
It computes by Type-F NOT having the clutch friction-modifiers which can (and often do) interfere with the brass-steel friction needed by the synchro.
So IF the transmission calls for an ATF, AND it uses brass as the friction element in the synchro, THEN Type-F ATF would be a better pick then Dexron(any), ATF+4, Mercon(any), etc.
See?
If you've read Molakule's white paper on how gear oils work and you'd like a little more information, there's an explanation of how Manual Transmission friction modifiers work here:
http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/MTL and MT-90 Tech Info.pdf
The graph at the end shows how MTL FM's differ from ATF FM's and why it's important to have the correct one in the correct amount for whatever the application is.
It computes by Type-F NOT having the clutch friction-modifiers which can (and often do) interfere with the brass-steel friction needed by the synchro.
So IF the transmission calls for an ATF, AND it uses brass as the friction element in the synchro, THEN Type-F ATF would be a better pick then Dexron(any), ATF+4, Mercon(any), etc.
See?
If you've read Molakule's white paper on how gear oils work and you'd like a little more information, there's an explanation of how Manual Transmission friction modifiers work here:
http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/MTL and MT-90 Tech Info.pdf
The graph at the end shows how MTL FM's differ from ATF FM's and why it's important to have the correct one in the correct amount for whatever the application is.
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MolaKule
Staff member
Right on jaj.
Quote:
Martinq: It computes by Type-F NOT having the clutch friction-modifiers which can (and often do) interfere with the brass-steel friction needed by the synchro.
The chemistry of ATF friction modifiers and MTF friction modifiers is totally different with totally different COFs.
ATF friction modifiers do not equal MTF friction modifiers do not equal differential fluid friction modifiers, do not equal PCMO friction modifiers. Each type of fluid has a different Fricttion Modifier chemistry.
Quote:
Synchronizer: The locking mechanism for any individual gear consists of a collar on the shaft which is able to slide sideways so that teeth or “dogs” on its inner surface bridge two circular rings with teeth on their outer circumference; one attached to the gear, one to the shaft. (One collar typically serves for two gears; sliding in one direction selects one transmission speed, in the other direction selects the other) In our illustration from above, the bottom or output shaft has splines that mate with the synchronizer “collar.” The synchronizer collar moves transversely on the splines, positioned by the shifter fork. When the rings are bridged by the collar, that particular gear is rotationally locked to the shaft and determines the output speed of the transmission. In a synchromesh gearbox, to correctly match the speed of the gear to that of the shaft as the gear is engaged, the collar initially applies a force to a cone-shaped brass clutch which is attached to the gear, which brings the speeds to match prior to the collar locking into place. The collar is prevented from bridging the locking rings when the speeds are mismatched by synchro rings also called blocker rings. Notice, before locking and speed synchronization, a lot of shearing takes place at the interfaces and for the reasons given above. Most synchronizer materials are of brass, but newer synchronizers can be made of strengthened graphite composites. Lubricant effects: A special Friction Modifier (FM) additive is incorporated into the base oil to allow just the right amount of friction before engagement. I.E., the FM gives rise to a specific coefficient of friction (COF) to allow engagement without “crunching.” Automatic Transmission Fluids (ATF) DO NOT have these specialized FM’s. Note, the specialized FM used in manual transmissions is NOT the same FM used in Limited Slip Differentials, nor is it the same FM used in Automatic Transmissions, nor is it the same FM used in engine oils. It is important to understand that there are different FM chemistries for different automotive applications!
From:
Technology of Manual Transmissions and Lubricants
Quote:
Martinq: It computes by Type-F NOT having the clutch friction-modifiers which can (and often do) interfere with the brass-steel friction needed by the synchro.
The chemistry of ATF friction modifiers and MTF friction modifiers is totally different with totally different COFs.
ATF friction modifiers do not equal MTF friction modifiers do not equal differential fluid friction modifiers, do not equal PCMO friction modifiers. Each type of fluid has a different Fricttion Modifier chemistry.
Quote:
Synchronizer: The locking mechanism for any individual gear consists of a collar on the shaft which is able to slide sideways so that teeth or “dogs” on its inner surface bridge two circular rings with teeth on their outer circumference; one attached to the gear, one to the shaft. (One collar typically serves for two gears; sliding in one direction selects one transmission speed, in the other direction selects the other) In our illustration from above, the bottom or output shaft has splines that mate with the synchronizer “collar.” The synchronizer collar moves transversely on the splines, positioned by the shifter fork. When the rings are bridged by the collar, that particular gear is rotationally locked to the shaft and determines the output speed of the transmission. In a synchromesh gearbox, to correctly match the speed of the gear to that of the shaft as the gear is engaged, the collar initially applies a force to a cone-shaped brass clutch which is attached to the gear, which brings the speeds to match prior to the collar locking into place. The collar is prevented from bridging the locking rings when the speeds are mismatched by synchro rings also called blocker rings. Notice, before locking and speed synchronization, a lot of shearing takes place at the interfaces and for the reasons given above. Most synchronizer materials are of brass, but newer synchronizers can be made of strengthened graphite composites. Lubricant effects: A special Friction Modifier (FM) additive is incorporated into the base oil to allow just the right amount of friction before engagement. I.E., the FM gives rise to a specific coefficient of friction (COF) to allow engagement without “crunching.” Automatic Transmission Fluids (ATF) DO NOT have these specialized FM’s. Note, the specialized FM used in manual transmissions is NOT the same FM used in Limited Slip Differentials, nor is it the same FM used in Automatic Transmissions, nor is it the same FM used in engine oils. It is important to understand that there are different FM chemistries for different automotive applications!
From:
Technology of Manual Transmissions and Lubricants
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"Try Royal Purple Synchromax, or Valvoline MTF, or Pennzoil Synchromax. All would better than any ATF."
Don't forget Honda MTF II ... available at any Honda or Acura dealership. Price varies but expect $10-12 per quart.
Don't forget Honda MTF II ... available at any Honda or Acura dealership. Price varies but expect $10-12 per quart.
Originally Posted By: jaj
If you've read Molakule's white paper on how gear oils work and you'd like a little more information,
No thanks, I'm fine.
If you've read Molakule's white paper on how gear oils work and you'd like a little more information,
No thanks, I'm fine.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
The chemistry of ATF friction modifiers and MTF friction modifiers is totally different with totally different COFs.
That doesn't impact on the point I was making.
The chemistry of ATF friction modifiers and MTF friction modifiers is totally different with totally different COFs.
That doesn't impact on the point I was making.
MolaKule
Staff member
I beg to differ.
Type F fluids DO have friction modifiers in them, albeit not at the same level or of the same type as the higher friction modified fluids such as the Dex/Mercs, or the Chrysler ATF+ series.
The chemistry of ATF friction modifiers and MTF friction modifiers are totally different.
You need a specific friction modifier chemistry for the synchronizer assemblies in the MTF.
In addition, the Anti-Wear chemistry in MTL's is about 3 to 4 times highers than in ATF formulations.
The major reason many manufacturers specify a fluid such as DexronIII or thereabouts in many Manual Transmissions is because of two reasons:
1) ATF shifts better in cold weather than the fluids they originally specified, which were about 10 cSt@100C fluids,
2) At the time there were no MTL fluids of the same viscosity as ATF, but there are now.
In addition, ATF fluids will not protect as well as application specific MTLS because the AW additive package in ATF's have only 1/2 to 1/3 of a GL-4 protection rating.
ATF fluids DO NOT have the specialized friction modifier chemistry nededed for MT synchronizers.
Below are fluids suitable for MTL's that specify ATF:
Quote:
A. The four MTL fluids closest to a Kinematic Viscosity of 6.1 (About the same viscosity as a DexronVI) or so are:
1. Castrol Syntrans FE 75W,
2. BMW (Pentosin) MTF-LT-3,
3. Honda MTII or MTF 2.
4. Ford FML-XT-11-QDC
B. The next higher viscosity MTL would be the 7.5 cSt versions (About the same viscosity as a DexronIII)
1. Royal Purple's Synchromax
2. Ravenol MTF-2
3. Honda MTF
4. VW part number G052512A2
5. GM Manual Transmission and Transfer Case Fluid
6. BMW (Pentosin MTF 2) MTF-LT-1, 2
Type F fluids DO have friction modifiers in them, albeit not at the same level or of the same type as the higher friction modified fluids such as the Dex/Mercs, or the Chrysler ATF+ series.
The chemistry of ATF friction modifiers and MTF friction modifiers are totally different.
You need a specific friction modifier chemistry for the synchronizer assemblies in the MTF.
In addition, the Anti-Wear chemistry in MTL's is about 3 to 4 times highers than in ATF formulations.
The major reason many manufacturers specify a fluid such as DexronIII or thereabouts in many Manual Transmissions is because of two reasons:
1) ATF shifts better in cold weather than the fluids they originally specified, which were about 10 cSt@100C fluids,
2) At the time there were no MTL fluids of the same viscosity as ATF, but there are now.
In addition, ATF fluids will not protect as well as application specific MTLS because the AW additive package in ATF's have only 1/2 to 1/3 of a GL-4 protection rating.
ATF fluids DO NOT have the specialized friction modifier chemistry nededed for MT synchronizers.
Below are fluids suitable for MTL's that specify ATF:
Quote:
A. The four MTL fluids closest to a Kinematic Viscosity of 6.1 (About the same viscosity as a DexronVI) or so are:
1. Castrol Syntrans FE 75W,
2. BMW (Pentosin) MTF-LT-3,
3. Honda MTII or MTF 2.
4. Ford FML-XT-11-QDC
B. The next higher viscosity MTL would be the 7.5 cSt versions (About the same viscosity as a DexronIII)
1. Royal Purple's Synchromax
2. Ravenol MTF-2
3. Honda MTF
4. VW part number G052512A2
5. GM Manual Transmission and Transfer Case Fluid
6. BMW (Pentosin MTF 2) MTF-LT-1, 2
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I beg to differ.
No doubt, but I was referring to the question in the first post.
I looked up the transmission (m5od-r1) and Ford originally spec'd Mercon which had been superceeded by Mercon V. The transmission does indeed use brass in the synchros.
Based on personal experience I can say for certain that Type-F will work better with a brass-synchro transmission than the typical ATF families (Mercon, ATF+4, Dexron, etc). On the other hand, now that we know what the application is, I'd certainly recommend a light, quality, MTF even though Ford and/or Toyota might not.
The first thing that comes to mind would be:
- GM Synchromesh
- Pennzoil Synchromesh
- Honda MTF
A more durable/performance option would be:
- Red Line MTL
- Amsoil MTF
- Pentosin MTF
But, in a pinch, I would certainly use a quality Type-F even if it was only for a stop-gap.
I beg to differ.
No doubt, but I was referring to the question in the first post.
I looked up the transmission (m5od-r1) and Ford originally spec'd Mercon which had been superceeded by Mercon V. The transmission does indeed use brass in the synchros.
Based on personal experience I can say for certain that Type-F will work better with a brass-synchro transmission than the typical ATF families (Mercon, ATF+4, Dexron, etc). On the other hand, now that we know what the application is, I'd certainly recommend a light, quality, MTF even though Ford and/or Toyota might not.
The first thing that comes to mind would be:
- GM Synchromesh
- Pennzoil Synchromesh
- Honda MTF
A more durable/performance option would be:
- Red Line MTL
- Amsoil MTF
- Pentosin MTF
But, in a pinch, I would certainly use a quality Type-F even if it was only for a stop-gap.
hey guys thanks for all the responses. I may have to try the type f to see how it works, if it don't do any better I will just get some redline mtl, I have used it in a t5 and it works good but just looking for something a little cheaper
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