Help me understand Allison TES-295 and TES-668, Alternatives?

38Chevy454

38Chevy454

Joined
Jun 28, 2012
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Location
Cincinnati, OH
I have a Freightliner chassis motorhome with an Allison 3000 series transmissionmission, with Cummins ISL9 engine. The original spec is for TES-295 fluid, which I now believe has now been superseded by TES-668. I am going to do a transmission fluid dump and refill, so trying to figure out what fluid I should use. I do know that the transmissionmission can use even old Dex 3, just with reduced interval. In other words it was originally designed for the higher viscosity fluids than what are popular today. I have read that the Allison spec fluids are very good full synthetics, with PAO (how much??) to be even better. My motorhome transmission temps generally mid-high 100's, but can creep up to 220 on a long hill pull. So not bad excessive temps, or even higher temps for any extended period.

Help me understand what is special or different about the TES spec fluids? TES-668 is backward compatible to TES-295. Is TES-668 a lower viscosity fluid?

I know there are many full synthetic multi vehicle ATF available, such as the popular Maxlife. I have used Maxlife in other passenger type vehicles with good results. Lately most of the full synthetic multi vehicle ATF seem to be Dex 6 or low viscosity. Is this a problem for the Allison in my motorhome? It seems the pickup 1000 series version of the Allison are using the thinner Dex 6 type low viscosity fluids now.

I recently bought a bunch of the Valvoline hybrid ATF (Dex 6, Lifeguard 8 compatible) for cheap on AAP clearance. I can use that in my 2020 Silverado, but curious if that might also be usable in the motorhome? If there is an alternative to the $45-50/gal TES spec fluid it would be appreciated. Thanks for any advice and helping me to understand what is special about the TES spec fluids, besides the certification testing cost to put it on the label.
 
Your Allison 3000 is a very expensive and extremely durable transmission. If it were me, I wouldn't even consider running a transmission fluid that didn't meet TES-295 or TES-668. Viscosity isn't as important as the fact that Allison recommends TES-668 over TES-295 for your application. TES-668 is a more modern fluid that has better oxidative stability and a better add pack. To use Valvoline MaxLife ATF in your 3000 would be rolling the dice.

There are some alternatives:

https://allisontransmission.bynder....inal/Allison-TES-668-Approved-Fluids-List.pdf
 
Yes, you can use Dexron VI, but only with a fairly short fluid change interval, as it is prone to sheering in the Allison 3000. That is one of the main reasons TES 295 was developed.

TES 668 is the replacement to TES 295 and is fully backwards compatible. According to Castrol, who worked closely with Allison in the development of 668, it offers improvement over 295 in "improved gear wear protection, enhanced anti-shudder durability, and better clutch-friction properties."

An additional benefit of 668 is a very long fluid change interval. Hopefully Tom, aka Mr. Transynd will join and explain, as he is an expert on Transynd 295 and 668 development, but I can say it is his recommendation that once you have done a proper change to 668 in the transmission, to not change fluid on time or mileage, but instead by doing a transmission fluid analysis, to see when it is due for replacement.

Castrol Transynd 668 is currently available in a 5 gal. pail from both Walmart.com and Amazon for under $200, and that will be more than enough to do a drain and fill, even if your 3000 has the large capacity pan. Unless of course you decide to do a second drain and fill, to get a more complete changeover to 668.

Do you know what transmission fluid is currently in the transmission? If it is already 668, you may consider sending in a sample to his test lab, to determine if you even need to change the fluid.
 
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38Chevy454 said:
I have a Freightliner chassis motorhome with an Allison 3000 series transmissionmission, with Cummins ISL9 engine. The original spec is for TES-295 fluid, which I now believe has now been superseded by TES-668. I am going to do a transmission fluid dump and refill, so trying to figure out what fluid I should use. I do know that the transmissionmission can use even old Dex 3, just with reduced interval. In other words it was originally designed for the higher viscosity fluids than what are popular today. I have read that the Allison spec fluids are very good full synthetics, with PAO (how much??) to be even better. My motorhome transmission temps generally mid-high 100's, but can creep up to 220 on a long hill pull. So not bad excessive temps, or even higher temps for any extended period.

Help me understand what is special or different about the TES spec fluids? TES-668 is backward compatible to TES-295. Is TES-668 a lower viscosity fluid?

I know there are many full synthetic multi vehicle ATF available, such as the popular Maxlife. I have used Maxlife in other passenger type vehicles with good results. Lately most of the full synthetic multi vehicle ATF seem to be Dex 6 or low viscosity. Is this a problem for the Allison in my motorhome? It seems the pickup 1000 series version of the Allison are using the thinner Dex 6 type low viscosity fluids now.

I recently bought a bunch of the Valvoline hybrid ATF (Dex 6, Lifeguard 8 compatible) for cheap on AAP clearance. I can use that in my 2020 Silverado, but curious if that might also be usable in the motorhome? If there is an alternative to the $45-50/gal TES spec fluid it would be appreciated. Thanks for any advice and helping me to understand what is special about the TES spec fluids, besides the certification testing cost to put it on the label.
Click to expand...
38Chevy454,

All the work on TES-295 was based on previous work at GM on the DEXRON-IIIG/H specifications. Castrol (and an additive company that will remain unnamed) took the DEXRON-III Automatic Transmission Fluid specification and "tweaked" it to make it far more stable. Improvements included greater viscosity stability and far greater oxidation resistance. The outcome was an extremely stable versus of a DEXRON-III fluid which has been shown to last for extremely long periods of time as proven over many years now. It's virtually unbreakable, even in the harshest of duty cycles including city buses and refuse trucks. I cannot share actual data but you can believe what I'm telling you. Don't worry about transmissionmission temperatures at all. TES-295 and TES-668 fluids are tested at way higher temperatures than you'll ever see on your dashboard in any situation and they are tested for many many hours at those very high temperatures.

I retired from Allison Transmission in 2009. I'm now Owner and President of JG Lubricant Services (www.jglubricantservices.com). I recommend annual oil and coolant analysis for all RVs and Tow Vehicles. You can learn more on our RV page at www.jglubricantservices.com/rv.html. Prior to retiring from Allison Transmission, I engineered and passed on what I believed to be the "next phase" specification. That became the TES-668 specification which includes all of the TES-295 specification plus added seals testing and additional qualifications for use in Allison Hybrid Electric transmissionmissions. Although I cannot discuss any specifics of these robust ATF formulations, suffice it to say that the base oils are PAO (polyalphaolefin) design with very specific additives to meet the grueling specification. These base oil and addive formulations give TES-295 and TES-668 approved fluids their viscosity coverage and viscosity stability. Viscosities are not lower than DEXRON-III fluids .... just much more stable and very sufficient for Allison transmissionmission gear and bearing protection. TES-295 and TES-668 fluids will not "sheardown" or experience viscosity loss over time as other ATFs might. Allison Approved TES-295 and TES-668 fluids are "bullet proof"

In summary, you'll have great success with either an Allison Approved and licensed TES-295 or the newer TES-668. DEXRON-VI fluids are not recommended for Allison transmissionmissions built prior to 2007. Always consult Allison Transmission for fluid recommendations (Allison Approved fluids list).

PS: TES = Transmission Engineering Specification

PSS: You can read my paper, entitled "All About Oils for RV and Tow Vehicle Owners" at this link: https://www.jglubricantservices.com/docs/rv_technical_sheet.pdf
 
OP -
I'm not familiar with the application you have, but I suspect the transmission system capacity is fairly large (sump, lines, cooler inclusive).

It may be far better to get a UOA done on your existing fluid. If it was TES-295 which went in at the factory, a change may not be warranted, especially given the temps you've stated.

TES-295 (and subsequent) fluids were designed and manufactured for the worst of the worst of applications. We're talking refuse trucks and transmissionport busses. These vehicles flash the torque converters and haul heavy loads from a standing stop. With a driver who makes a living using someone else's vehicle. All day long. In city downtown stagnant temps in summer. These are BRUTAL conditions. And the TES spec'd lubes handle it all day, every day, with aplomb.

I've seen guys insist on using TES-295 fluids in their light-duty trucks, then OCI the fluid every 30k miles. That is a total, absurd waste of a great lube. I have over 500 UOAs from all manner of sources of the Allison 1000 series transmissionmission; I know what I'm talking about.

I highly urge you to test what you have in there now, and not just blindly change it. A $35 UOA may save you hundreds of dollars in a needless OCI.
 
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From Wikipedia…

“DEXRON-VI is of a slightly lower viscosity when new compared to the prior DEXRON fluids (a maximum of 6.4 cSt at 100 °C for DEXRON-VI and 7.5 cSt for DEXRON-III), but the allowed viscosity loss from shearing of the ATF during use is lower for DEXRON-VI, resulting in the same lowest allowed final viscosity for both DEXRON-III and DEXRON-VI (5.5 cSt) in test.

In reality, most of the DEXRON-III fluids typically sheared to about 4.2 cSt in use. The lower, more stable viscosity improved pumping efficiency within the transmission and fluid stability over life. Since Dexron VI is not allowed to thin out (lower its viscosity) as much as Dexron III during use, it requires the use of higher-quality, more shear-stable (less prone to thinning while in use) formulations.”

TES-295/668 is full synthetic like Dexron VI, but has the viscosity of Dexron III…
When Dexron VI was introduced, big trucks sheared it down too far, hence the development of higher viscosity TES-295/668
 
dnewton3 said:
OP -
I'm not familiar with the application you have, but I suspect the transmission system capacity is fairly large (sump, lines, cooler inclusive).

It may be far better to get a UOA done on your existing fluid. If it was TES-295 which went in at the factory, a change may not be warranted, especially given the temps you've stated.

TES-295 (and subsequent) fluids were designed and manufactured for the worst of the worst of applications. We're talking refuse trucks and transmissionport busses. These vehicles flash the torque converters and haul heavy loads from a standing stop. With a driver who makes a living using someone else's vehicle. All day long. In city downtown stagnant temps in summer. These are BRUTAL conditions. And the TES spec'd lubes handle it all day, every day, with aplomb.

I've seen guys insist on using TES-295 fluids in their light-duty trucks, then OCI the fluid every 30k miles. That is a total, absurd waste of a great lube. I have over 500 UOAs from all manner of sources of the Allison 1000 series transmissionmission; I know what I'm talking about.

I highly urge you to test what you have in there now, and not just blindly change it. A $35 UOA may save you hundreds of dollars in a needless OCI.
Click to expand...
Yep. I agree. BITOG members should practice annual fluid analysis (oils and coolants). I recommend you sample the engine oil, the engine coolant and the automatic transmissionmission fluid. Also, if you're an RV owner (Type A, B or C), also sample the generator oil and coolant on an annual basis. Here's why that's important .... even if you're running top of the line synthetics (even TES-295 or TES-668), it's critical to do annual fluid analysis (oils and coolants). Contamination is the biggest threat to any fluid, be it engine oil, engine coolant, transmissionmission fluid, etc.). Most synthetic based oils and transmissionmission fluids are very stable and don't typically experience degradation from mechanical or thermal stresses. So, fluid life is typically determined by contamination which can enter into the oil/transmissionmission fluid from inside or from the breather/intake system. This includes such things as water, fuel, coolant, dirt/dust/debris, etc.. We, offer UOA (Used Oil Analysis) and used coolant analysis.

JG Lubricant Services, is a SERVICE DISABLED VETERAN OWNED SMALL BUSINESS (SDVOSB).

SBA Certifications.webp
 
dnewton3 said:
TES-295 (and subsequent) fluids were designed and manufactured for the worst of the worst of applications. We're talking refuse trucks and transport busses. These vehicles flash the torque converters and haul heavy loads from a standing stop. With a driver who makes a living using someone else's vehicle. All day long. In city downtown stagnant temps in summer. These are BRUTAL conditions. And the TES spec'd lubes handle it all day, every day, with aplomb.
Click to expand...
I have a friend back home who works for a municipality that runs about 10 garbage trucks. All have Allison transmissions that run at least 8 hours/day in stop/start service. They sample the TES-668 fluid and change when needed, not when they feel like it needs to be changed. The fluid lasts a long time. They have never had a single Allison transmission problem, ever.
 
We (I'm a retiree of Allison engineering) validated those transmissions on everything from Dexron III, 0W20 Mil spec engine oil, 15W40 Mil spec engine oil, 30W engine oil, and Transynd which is basically the best Dexron III we could formulate. Later versions of Transynd like 668 have improved compatibility with electronic parts inside the transmission but the clutch and gear parts work the same. Transynd looked great after 75,000 miles in NYC Sanitation trucks (one of the benchmark tough applications) and in a motorhome should last pretty much forever. Change your filters as spec'd in the manuals and enjoy the ride.
 
Thanks @MR_TRANSYND and others for the helpful information. I only have 55K miles on the motorhome, but tend to be conservative on changing fluids; with the opinion to do it even if before mfr recommendations. To me fluid change is cheap insurance, even if a dump and refill is not getting all of the fluid out. It's been 10 years since new, so that is why I was considering the dump and refill with new fluid. In general the motorhome's transmissionmission probably is very easy service compared to a garbage truck, the difference being start and stop compared to a long hill pull.

BTW, motorhome transmission does not have the external spin-on filter like the 1000 series used in 1 ton trucks. It is a 6 speed transmission, not the earlier 5 speed version.

I will send a sample in, if only to get a better idea on where the values are for the current OEM fluid. The OEM fluid is supposed to be TES-295 since it is a 2016 mfg date. I've owned since 2020 and previous owner did not do any transmissionmission fluid changes. Current fluid is still nice red color and smells like new fluid. I am sure it will test as being good shape given what I now learned about the TES fluid.
 
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nascarnation said:
We (I'm a retiree of Allison engineering) validated those transmissions on everything from Dexron III, 0W20 Mil spec engine oil, 15W40 Mil spec engine oil, 30W engine oil, and Transynd which is basically the best Dexron III we could formulate. Later versions of Transynd like 668 have improved compatibility with electronic parts inside the transmission but the clutch and gear parts work the same. Transynd looked great after 75,000 miles in NYC Sanitation trucks (one of the benchmark tough applications) and in a motorhome should last pretty much forever. Change your filters as spec'd in the manuals and enjoy the ride.
Click to expand...
There are two cartridge filters easily accessible on the bottom. Many YT vids showing how. 6 bolts on each cover. Need a big pan to catch the oil. Do use a torque wrench on install, 38 lb-ft. Probably best to buy a filter change kit that has the o-rings and new gaskets to re-seal properly.
 
nascarnation said:
There's two cartridge filters easily accessible on the bottom. Many YT vids showing how. 6 bolts on each cover. Need a big pan to catch the oil. Do use a torque wrench on install, 38 lb-ft. Probably best to buy a filter change kit that has the o-rings and new gaskets to re-seal properly.
Click to expand...
If I recall correctly, the filters can be changed without draining all the fluid from the transmission. Perhaps a quart or two of fluid is lost when changing filters?
 
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