Two Extended Performance oil filter questions

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: paulri
I emailed someone at Fram, and he told me that the Ultra "would work just fine" for this purpose. However, I called their support and was told that Fram does not recommend using the same filter for more than one OCI. Go figure.


Their right answer would have been it's OK to use it for 2x OCIs if the vehicle manufacturer recommends it and the filter isn't used over 15K miles total.

Originally Posted By: dlundblad

Also, running the filter 2x voids the warranty too assuming both OCI's add up to more than what the auto manufacturer recommends. (2) 7500 mile "manufacturer specified" OCI's on a 15k Fram Ultra for example.


That's how I read it too.

 

[Nyogtha]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
I wonder how many Fram filters have a date of installation that precedes the date of purchase of the filter?


It could happen if a shop installed the filter and the car sat for a month (for some reason) before the owner went and paid for the oil change.


Wouldn't the filter have been purchased by the oil change facility before it was installed on a customer's vehicle?

Same with assembly of a new vehicle - wouldn't the parts not manufactured directly by the OEM have been purchased prior to installation on the vehicle well before the vehicle is offered for sale to a customer?

Or is there hair-splitting between invoiced for delivered goods and receipt of payment on the invoice?

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ The warranty is to the end user, not the middle man shop who bought the filter.

 

[Nyogtha]

So it's hair-splitting between installation date and payment of invoice date? Interesting - so the longer the lag bewteen work performed for end user & payment due from end user, the longer the warranty?

Still curious on a numerical estimate on this split (installed on a date prior to purchase date). Have nay numbers?

 

[ZeeOSix]

If a shop had a 2 year old filter on the shelf and installed it and customer paid for it on day X, then the warranty would start on day X. Warranty doesn't start when it was made or goes on the store shelf. If warranty started the day the part was made, it would be a nightmare for all parts in stores.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: paulri
I emailed someone at Fram, and he told me that the Ultra "would work just fine" for this purpose. However, I called their support and was told that Fram does not recommend using the same filter for more than one OCI. Go figure.

Their right answer would have been it's OK to use it for 2x OCIs if the vehicle manufacturer recommends it and the filter isn't used over 15K miles total.
Originally Posted By: dlundblad

Also, running the filter 2x voids the warranty too assuming both OCI's add up to more than what the auto manufacturer recommends. (2) 7500 mile "manufacturer specified" OCI's on a 15k Fram Ultra for example.

That's how I read it too.

Honda recommends changing oil filter on second oil change(for most engines) with their not so high quality oil filter, but a much better Fram Ultra is not be able to do it ?

I know it's very difficult to state warranty coverage for all cases, especially for Honda engines. It is known that Honda OCI can be as high as 10-12k miles and their FCI is twice OCI.

If Fram Ultra is to cover Honda FCI then it is a 25k oil filter.

 

[Nyogtha]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If a shop had a 2 year old filter on the shelf and installed it and customer paid for it on day X, then the warranty would start on day X. Warranty doesn't start when it was made or goes on the store shelf. If warranty started the day the part was made, it would be a nightmare for all parts in stores.


This discussion on manufacturing date has nothing to do with fram's posted warranty nor anything I posted.

if the installation date & purchase date are the same for the end user, there is no difference in the time component of Fram's posted warranty, so that doesn't apply to my question either.

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Yep, that's correct - which is an interesting bit of legalese IMO.

I wonder how many Fram filters have a date of installation that precedes the date of purchase of the filter?


I still don't see any numbers.

 

[Nyogtha]

I find Fram's warranty interesting as it doesn't address Fram's mileage recommendations on Fram's three tiers of oil filter products. For example, if the application calls for a PH2 in Fram's application guide, the same warranty applies whether a PH2, TG2, XG2, (or installer line three tiers - Pro / Core ecore, Pro, or Pro Synthetic) is used.

The Champion Labs Mobil 1 filter guarantee is much simpler as it's a single tier offering : clearly up to 15K miles or one year regardless of manufactrer's specified interval isf used with synthetic oil - (or if not used with synthetic oil, engine manufacturer's recommended service interval). No time provisions other than engine manufacturer's service interval if not used with synthetic oil.

https://mobiloil.com/en/article/warranti...filter-warranty

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If a shop had a 2 year old filter on the shelf and installed it and customer paid for it on day X, then the warranty would start on day X. Warranty doesn't start when it was made or goes on the store shelf. If warranty started the day the part was made, it would be a nightmare for all parts in stores.


This discussion on manufacturing date has nothing to do with fram's posted warranty nor anything I posted.

if the installation date & purchase date are the same for the end user, there is no difference in the time component of Fram's posted warranty, so that doesn't apply to my question either.


No, but weren't you questioning why the warranty doesn't start when the part is first manufactured? That's what I gathered from this:
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha

Wouldn't the filter have been purchased by the oil change facility before it was installed on a customer's vehicle?

Same with assembly of a new vehicle - wouldn't the parts not manufactured directly by the OEM have been purchased prior to installation on the vehicle well before the vehicle is offered for sale to a customer?


I was just pointing out that the warranty as stated by Fram starts with the later of either: 1) date of purchase of the filter or 2) date of installation of the filter.

Fram's statement:
"warranted to their original purchaser to be free from defects in material and workmanship for one (1) year from the later of the date of purchase or the date of installation."

In the case where the filter is sold and installed by someone else (lube shop, repair shop, etc), then the warranty would start when the customer paid for the installation, since that would typically be later than when it was installed. In a very rare case, it's possible the filter could be installed a quite a while before the customer picked up the car and paid for the filter. I guess one could argue that the warranty started when it was installed, even if the customer picked up the car 100 days after the filter was installed. Hair splitting I guess ... let the lawyers hash it out if it comes to that (which I doubt).

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Yep, that's correct - which is an interesting bit of legalese IMO.

I wonder how many Fram filters have a date of installation that precedes the date of purchase of the filter?


Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
I still don't see any numbers.


Going in circles now ... does it really matter?

In most cases the installation date and purchase date for the installation will be probably be within a day or two.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
I find Fram's warranty interesting as it doesn't address Fram's mileage recommendations on Fram's three tiers of oil filter products. For example, if the application calls for a PH2 in Fram's application guide, the same warranty applies whether a PH2, TG2, XG2, (or installer line three tiers - Pro / Core ecore, Pro, or Pro Synthetic) is used.


That's because of the part in their warranty statement that is shown in red below. Pretty typical language.

"FRAM® filter products manufactured or sold by FRAM Group Operations LLC are warranted to their original purchaser to be free from defects in material and workmanship for the duration of the original equipment recommended change interval."

Fram also states for the Ultra:
"Ultimate dual-layer synthetic media provides up to 15,000 miles of engine protection. Follow recommended change intervals as noted in your vehicle owner's manual."

The gray blurry part is as pointed out, if the recommended 2x interval exceeds 15K miles, then what? IMO, per their "for the duration of the original equipment recommended change interval" would mean it's still under warranty if 1 year hasn't gone by.

They are warranting the OEM recommendation, not the "up to X miles" statement.

 

[Nyogtha]

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Regardless of Fram's listing on the interval the filter is designed / engineered for in Fram's literature, the warranty is the same.

Easy example - 2014 Ram 1500 5.7L Hemi

Manufacturer's interval is 10 K miles / 1 year max, or by OCI.

No other specification on conventional, synthetic blend, or synthetic on oil used nor oil filter used, as long as both meet OEM specifications (API certified, meets MS-6395, and same grade specified, etc.).

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...103627116,d.cWw

Fram Parts Finder lists HM10060, PH10060, TG10060, and XG10060.

Fram's posted warranty would be the same for a Fram PH10060 using conventional oil as a XG10060 using synthetic oil in this application (and I'm supposing a Fram Pro series filter would fall in this same warranty).

edit - corrected model year

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ I see what you're saying. If you took Fram's warranty statement literally, then all their filters are supposedly covered if used per the OEM vehicle recommendations on filter changes and within 1 year time.

I guess the guy doing the oil change would have to realize which filter to use based on Fram's statements of good for "up to X miles" of use.

Fram still might warranty an EG for example for the OEM change interval due to defects, but it might not be "providing protection" after their recommended 5k mile use interval.

 

[Nyogtha]

Now, the Mobil 1 oil filter selector calls for a Mobil 1 M1-113 that same vehicle.

So, that same vehicle using a Mobil 1 M1-113 has a guarantee for 15,000 miles service on that vehicle when used with synthetic oil (and surely same caveats on API rated etc. for this application). No time component nor OEM interval for the posted warranty by Champion Laboratories in this case.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Now, the Mobil 1 oil filter selector calls for a Mobil 1 M1-113 that same vehicle.

So, that same vehicle using a Mobil 1 M1-113 has a guarantee for 15,000 miles service on that vehicle when used with synthetic oil (and surely same caveats on API rated etc. for this application). No time component nor OEM interval for the posted warranty by Champion Laboratories in this case.


That's pretty bold of them. What if someone left it on for 4 years and used the vehicle under mostly sever use conditions? Seems like a pretty relaxed warranty from Champ Labs.

 

[Nyogtha]

Fram's posted warranty applies only to defects in materials and workmanship. Same for Champion Labs posted Mobil 1 filter warranty. Why would anything else be warranted by these manufacturers? Both have qualifiers such as correct application, installed in accordance with OEM specs, etc. Otherwise they would warranty things outside their direct control in the manufacturing process.

"Literally" is often the strongest basis for a legal foundation. Things can evolve into precedents after cases have been submitted and findings rendered, if the similar cases are legally ruled to have relevance.

Going back to my real question, if interpreted for only the end user - here's a real world type example.

A car lot dealing with used vehicles has it's own service department for things as simple as tire and lubrication.

The dealer receives a used car into inventory, and performs a lubricant & oil filter change before offering the same vehicle for sale to an end user, using a new Fram oil filter specified for the application and fresh oil meeting OEM specs.

Do miles racked up by dealer personnel and time in service for such things between that point and sale to an individual counted as "end user" don't count against Fram warranty (registration remains the dealer in this period)?

Personally, I wouldn't bet on that in any dispute.

The only time I see the flexibility in the Fram posted warranty realistically applying is new vehicles where the filter is installed at some significant prior time than ownership is transferred to the first non-dealer owner. Even in that case, I think that would likely be subrogation to Fram from the dealership if a bumper-to-bumper warranty comes with the new vehicle.

Since Mobil 1 brand / labeled filters aren't installed on new vehicles, no such legalese in that warranty.

 

[Nyogtha]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Now, the Mobil 1 oil filter selector calls for a Mobil 1 M1-113 that same vehicle.

So, that same vehicle using a Mobil 1 M1-113 has a guarantee for 15,000 miles service on that vehicle when used with synthetic oil (and surely same caveats on API rated etc. for this application). No time component nor OEM interval for the posted warranty by Champion Laboratories in this case.


That's pretty bold of them. What if someone left it on for 4 years and used the vehicle under mostly sever use conditions? Seems like a pretty relaxed warranty from Champ Labs.


If you see it worded differently in that posted warranty I'm open to seeing that.

It may well speak for the manufacturing confidence level in the Mobil 1 filter product, backed up by historical data in service to reach providing that level of warranty.

I doubt the Champion Labs legal team is less sharp than Fram's, especially since both are owned by the same organization now.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Now, the Mobil 1 oil filter selector calls for a Mobil 1 M1-113 that same vehicle.

So, that same vehicle using a Mobil 1 M1-113 has a guarantee for 15,000 miles service on that vehicle when used with synthetic oil (and surely same caveats on API rated etc. for this application). No time component nor OEM interval for the posted warranty by Champion Laboratories in this case.


That's pretty bold of them. What if someone left it on for 4 years and used the vehicle under mostly sever use conditions? Seems like a pretty relaxed warranty from Champ Labs.


If you see it worded differently in that posted warranty I'm open to seeing that.


What gets them covered (as is the case with all these warranties regardless of the manufacturer) are the words "...proven defective during the engine or equipment manufacturer’s recommended service interval (or up to 15,000 miles of guaranteed protection when combined with fully synthetic motor oils) will be replaced at no charge by Champion Laboratories."

In other words, the service interval is dictated by the vehicle manufacture, and that will say when to change the oil filter based on the use conditions and time of the vehicle.

The caviet with the Mobil 1 is that the warranty runs out after 15K miles, unlike the Fram warranty that says they will warranty it throughout the OEM recommendation. And if that means 2x 10K OCIs on a Honda per their service manual then I'd think it would be covers. The Mobil 1 warranty makes it sound like the warranty is over after 15K regardless of what the OEM says.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Fram's posted warranty applies only to defects in materials and workmanship. Same for Champion Labs posted Mobil 1 filter warranty. Why would anything else be warranted by these manufacturers? Both have qualifiers such as correct application, installed in accordance with OEM specs, etc. Otherwise they would warranty things outside their direct control in the manufacturing process.


Just to add, the warranty also covers any engine damage that can be proven was caused by the defective filter. Of course, that failure would have to happen within the time period specified in their warranty - ie, during the OEM's recommended use interval for an oil filter.

 

[Nyogtha]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Now, the Mobil 1 oil filter selector calls for a Mobil 1 M1-113 that same vehicle.

So, that same vehicle using a Mobil 1 M1-113 has a guarantee for 15,000 miles service on that vehicle when used with synthetic oil (and surely same caveats on API rated etc. for this application). No time component nor OEM interval for the posted warranty by Champion Laboratories in this case.


That's pretty bold of them. What if someone left it on for 4 years and used the vehicle under mostly sever use conditions? Seems like a pretty relaxed warranty from Champ Labs.


If you see it worded differently in that posted warranty I'm open to seeing that.


What gets them covered (as is the case with all these warranties regardless of the manufacturer) are the words "...proven defective during the engine or equipment manufacturer’s recommended service interval (or up to 15,000 miles of guaranteed protection when combined with fully synthetic motor oils) will be replaced at no charge by Champion Laboratories."

In other words, the service interval is dictated by the vehicle manufacture, and that will say when to change the oil filter based on the use conditions and time of the vehicle.

The caviet with the Mobil 1 is that the warranty runs out after 15K miles, unlike the Fram warranty that says they will warranty it throughout the OEM recommendation. And if that means 2x 10K OCIs on a Honda per their service manual then I'd think it would be covers. The Mobil 1 warranty makes it sound like the warranty is over after 15K regardless of what the OEM says.



Except the Fram is still subject to the 1 year requirement in the Fram warranty. This is an "AND" clause, not an "OR" clause. So if the 2X OCI specified by the manufacturer in your example are ALSO within BOTH any manufacturer FCI time limits AS WELL AS Fram's time limits, in addition to mileage limits, it apparently would be covered based on what's posted on Fram's web site.

Now look at what you copied on the Mobil 1 warranty - see the word "OR" between the manufacturer's service interval and the 15,000 mile clause when used with synthetic oil? It appears straightforward to me the Mobil 1 Champion warranty for 15k miles is exclusive of OEM recommended intervals when used with synthetic oil.

ZeeOSix : can you post a link to any another oil filter manufacturer's warranty that has an exception "OR" clause for 15k miles of service when used in conjunction with synthetic oil? You did post that is the case with all these warranties regardless of manufacturer (quoted verbaitim using this site's Quote feature in my post)..

 

[Nyogtha]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Fram's posted warranty applies only to defects in materials and workmanship. Same for Champion Labs posted Mobil 1 filter warranty. Why would anything else be warranted by these manufacturers? Both have qualifiers such as correct application, installed in accordance with OEM specs, etc. Otherwise they would warranty things outside their direct control in the manufacturing process.


Just to add, the warranty also covers any engine damage that can be proven was caused by the defective filter. Of course, that failure would have to happen within the time period specified in their warranty - ie, during the OEM's recommended use interval for an oil filter.


So you disagree with the Mobil 1 Champion Laboratories use of the word OR preceding their 15k miles limit when used with synthetic oil.

Ever program a computer using OR statements and AND statements, or take a Philosophy course in Logic?

I suppose you could request a definition of the term OR from Champion Labs in their warranty statement that you copied.

Me, if I was going to run a 15K CCI / FCI, over a period exceeding 1 year from both purchase and installation of the oil filter, know which filter warranty I would choose. But I don't make that choice for everyone.