Two Extended Performance oil filter questions

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Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
ZeeOSix : can you post a link to any another oil filter manufacturer's warranty that has an exception "OR" clause for 15k miles of service when used in conjunction with synthetic oil? You did post that is the case with all these warranties regardless of manufacturer (quoted verbaitim using this site's Quote feature in my post)..


What I meant was seems all the filter manufacturer always reference the vehicle manufactures service recommendations in one way or another. They are always using the OEM recommendations as their baseline. The Mobil 1 warranty is the first I've ever seen with a mileage specified.

Here's Purolator's warranty statement:
http://www.purolatorautofilters.net/document/Documents/PuroLimitedWarranty.pdf

"This limited warranty is effective for the number of miles and driving severity published in the owner's vehicle manual as the recommended service interval for filter replacements (“Warranty Period”)."
 
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha

Now look at what you copied on the Mobil 1 warranty - see the word "OR" between the manufacturer's service interval and the 15,000 mile clause when used with synthetic oil? It appears straightforward to me the Mobil 1 Champion warranty for 15k miles is exclusive of OEM recommended intervals when used with synthetic oil.


Could be true if you look at it that way. So if it took 2 years to reach 15K miles on the filter it would still be under warranty as it's written ... ??

Or it could mean which ever case happens first ... they don't clarify - it could be taken either way. Seems like they wouldn't stick their necks out and warranty beyond what the vehicle manufacturer recommends, but could be.

But probably also true that if in the case of a Honda with OEM recommendation of 2X OCIs that would push the mileage on the filter past 15K, then you could be out of filter warranty because of the 15K limit.
 
I'm not the one who posted / posited the Honda example. That was yours. Do you disagree how the Fram AND clause applies in your example?

I believe my grasp of the use of the term OR vs. AND in the Fram and Mobil 1 Champ labs posted warranties are defensible.

OR - one of the listed conditions may be satisfied to qualify

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/or

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/f355wky8.aspx

AND - both (all in this case) listed conditions must be satisfied to qualify

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/and

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/f355wky8.aspx


Your perspective on OR is it might be interchangeable with or replaced by AND in the Mobil 1 Champ labs warranty - correct?
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If a shop had a 2 year old filter on the shelf and installed it and customer paid for it on day X, then the warranty would start on day X. Warranty doesn't start when it was made or goes on the store shelf. If warranty started the day the part was made, it would be a nightmare for all parts in stores.


This discussion on manufacturing date has nothing to do with fram's posted warranty nor anything I posted.

if the installation date & purchase date are the same for the end user, there is no difference in the time component of Fram's posted warranty, so that doesn't apply to my question either.


No, but weren't you questioning why the warranty doesn't start when the part is first manufactured? That's what I gathered from this:
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha

Wouldn't the filter have been purchased by the oil change facility before it was installed on a customer's vehicle?

Same with assembly of a new vehicle - wouldn't the parts not manufactured directly by the OEM have been purchased prior to installation on the vehicle well before the vehicle is offered for sale to a customer?


Just to be clear - no. You were the first one to bring up date of filter manufacture.

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix


I was just pointing out that the warranty as stated by Fram starts with the later of either: 1) date of purchase of the filter or 2) date of installation of the filter.

Fram's statement:
"warranted to their original purchaser to be free from defects in material and workmanship for one (1) year from the later of the date of purchase or the date of installation."



This is exactly what I posted.

So Fram's use of the OR term is unambiguous to you in their warranty, but when used by Champion Labs in the Mobil 1 filter warranty it becomes ambiguous?

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha

Now look at what you copied on the Mobil 1 warranty - see the word "OR" between the manufacturer's service interval and the 15,000 mile clause when used with synthetic oil? It appears straightforward to me the Mobil 1 Champion warranty for 15k miles is exclusive of OEM recommended intervals when used with synthetic oil.


Could be true if you look at it that way. So if it took 2 years to reach 15K miles on the filter it would still be under warranty as it's written ... ??

Or it could mean which ever case happens first ... they don't clarify - it could be taken either way. Seems like they wouldn't stick their necks out and warranty beyond what the vehicle manufacturer recommends, but could be.



Why is Fram's use unambiguous and Champions' use ambiguous?
 
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
I'm not the one who posted / posited the Honda example. That was yours. Do you disagree how the Fram AND clause applies in your example?


Fram's warranty clause reads:

"FRAM® filter products manufactured or sold by FRAM Group Operations LLC are warranted to their original purchaser to be free from defects in material and workmanship for the duration of the original equipment recommended change interval and FRAM® hard parts (filters and hard parts are collectively referred to as, “Products”) are warranted to their original purchaser to be free from defects in material and workmanship for one (1) year from the later of the date of purchase or the date of installation."

IMO, it's pretty cut and dried. The filter is warrantied for the duration of the OEM recommended filter change interval within a period of 1 year. Keep in mind that the longest I've ever seen any vehicle manufacture recommend running oil is 1 year max (even full synthetic), regardless of the mileage on the oil. So it all seems to jive together.

Fram doesn't call out any max mileage for filter use in their warranty statement because it's based on the OEM's recommendations. Even though Fram says on their website that the EG is good for "up to 5,000 miles", their warranty statement basically says it's warrantied for the duration recommended by the vehicle manufacturer. Their "up to X miles" is a recommendation to ensure full protection during use, it's never discussed in the warranty statement. Therefore, Fram is saying they will warranty any of their filters for the OEM's recommended duration and if it takes a whole year to get there. If that's not what they mean literally, then they have a hole in their warranty statement.

In the case of a Honda with 2X OCIs on a filter, if it took longer than 1 year to do 2X filter uses, then I guess the warranty would be off by the way the warranty statement reads (ie, "and").

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha

Your perspective on OR is it might be interchangeable with or replaced by AND in the Mobil 1 Champ labs warranty - correct?


In the case of the Mobil 1 warranty statement, IMO it can be interpreted two different ways since they didn't seem to make it totally clear. OR statements can sometimes have conditions that make which OR choice is followed (ie, "which ever occurs first" ... "which ever gives most mileage", etc).

In the Mobil 1 statement, they seem to cap the warranty at 15K miles and only if full synthetic is used. I doubt many vehicle manufactures say to run oil to 15K, but the only caveat that seems to come up is the Honda 2X OCI filter use. Hondas with an OLM might push a 2X filter use past 15K. So which "OR" statement should be used in that case ... the one that "gives most mileage"?

Give Mobil a call if they have a Tech Line number ... it would be interesting on how they would answer the question.
 
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix


I was just pointing out that the warranty as stated by Fram starts with the later of either: 1) date of purchase of the filter or 2) date of installation of the filter.

Fram's statement:
"warranted to their original purchaser to be free from defects in material and workmanship for one (1) year from the later of the date of purchase or the date of installation."



This is exactly what I posted.

So Fram's use of the OR term is unambiguous to you in their warranty, but when used by Champion Labs in the Mobil 1 filter warranty it becomes ambiguous?


It has the caveat of "from the later of".

The Mobil 1 warranty statement using 'OR' does not have a caveat associated with the 'OR'.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha

Your perspective on OR is it might be interchangeable with or replaced by AND in the Mobil 1 Champ labs warranty - correct?


In the case of the Mobil 1 warranty statement, IMO it can be interpreted two different ways since they didn't seem to make it totally clear. OR statements can sometimes have conditions that make which OR choice is followed (ie, "which ever occurs first" ... "which ever gives most mileage", etc).

In the Mobil 1 statement, they seem to cap the warranty at 15K miles and only if full synthetic is used. I doubt many vehicle manufactures say to run oil to 15K, but the only caveat that seems to come up is the Honda 2X OCI filter use. Hondas with an OLM might push a 2X filter use past 15K. So which "OR" statement should be used in that case ... the one that "gives most mileage"?

Give Mobil a call if they have a Tech Line number ... it would be interesting on how they would answer the question.




It's totally clear to me that there is no such additional clarifier in the Champ Labs Mobil 1 filter warranty. You've cut & pasted it yourself in this thread.

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

The Mobil 1 warranty statement using 'OR' does not have a caveat associated with the 'OR'.


Why not contact Champion Labs? Mobil's web site specifically refers to the Champion Labs warranty for Mobil 1 filters. I find a high probability if Mobil 1 is contacted regarding the filter warranty, Mobil 1 personnel will refer you to Champion Labs, just like the website shows.


edit - I reckon Motorking would be a most appropriate individual to contact on this. I'll send this to Motorking to comment on when he finds time to do so.
 
Last edited:
I figure I tried the 2X OCI thing Honda recommends, so I currently have around 17400mi on my M1-110 oil filter.

I plan to change the oil when the current fill gets up to 10000mi, by then the oil filter would have 18400mi. I might just push the oil filter to 20000mi, do an UOA and report to the BITOG crowd.

But yeah...I've already surpassed the M1 15000mi oil filter limit, and car runs great, great MPG and everything.
 
I think the filter manufactures' warranty for most car manufactures is easy to understand, but for Honda 2X OCI filter use it became troublesome.

As I said, Honda OEM filter isn't the greatest but can be used for 2 OCI's of up to 1 year each OCI of up to around 10k miles, therefore the OEM filter can be used for up to 2 years/20k miles or more. But filter manufacture's FCI is mostly capped at 1 year even for the synthetic media filters.

Of the two conflicting recommendations I trust Honda more than filter manufactures, Honda engineers know their engines better than anyone else, they make more than 30 millions engine of all types a year, they are in position and have experience more than anyone.
 
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha

It's totally clear to me that there is no such additional clarifier in the Champ Labs Mobil 1 filter warranty. You've cut & pasted it yourself in this thread.


So exactly how do you interpret their statement?
"Any Mobil 1 Extended Performance oil filter proven defective during the engine or equipment manufacturer’s recommended service interval (or up to 15,000 miles of guaranteed protection when combined with fully synthetic motor oils) will be replaced at no charge by Champion Laboratories."

When the "manufacturer’s recommended service interval" is less than 15,000 miles it's easy to determine. But what if it's a Honda with a 2X 10,000 mile OCIs where the filter was used for 2 OCIs and the owner used the OLM to change oil - per Honda's recommendation?

See Leonardo629's post up 2 from this one - prime example. Is his oil filter still under warranty? It's still being used per the "manufacturer’s recommended service interval".

If you leave the qualifer up to the reader, then they will chose the "OR" option that makes it work for them. So in the case of the Honda the choice would be "manufacturer’s recommended service interval" regardless of miles on the filter.

Is that your take, or something different?
 
I see nothing in Leonardo629's post on whether his M1-110 oil filter was used with synthetic oil OR not.

So, the level of detail provided is insufficient to make a determination.

If the OEM filter for his application is warranted for 2 X OCI's, AND has no other qualifiers, why choose anything else IF filter warranty is a factor in choice of filter?

However, there is also insufficient detail in what's posted to see if this is the case.

I think the qualifier is up to a judge or mediator IF there is a dispute. In the case of a dispute, I've already posted both dictionary AND computer programming (logic) definitons of OR as well as AND, and stated my understanding of those terms is defensible on this basis. Certainly logical definitions from other sources could also be used to corroborate.
 
I sent Motorking a PM on this with a link to this thread earlier today, so he can respond when he has time available.

My opinion is this doesn't warrant using your red phone, but since you have the red phone & I don't, I'll leave that decision in your hands.
 
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
I sent Motorking a PM on this with a link to this thread earlier today, so he can respond when he has time available.

My opinion is this doesn't warrant using your red phone, but since you have the red phone & I don't, I'll leave that decision in your hands.


LoL ... what? Yeah, maybe he can clarify at least the Fram statement, which IMO doesn't need any clarification.

It's the Mobil/Champ Labs statement that needs clarification/qualifiers.
 
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
I see nothing in Leonardo629's post on whether his M1-110 oil filter was used with synthetic oil OR not.

So, the level of detail provided is insufficient to make a determination.


I believe the "TGMO 0W20" is full synthetic. TGMO = Toyota Genuine Motor Oil.

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
I think the qualifier is up to a judge or mediator IF there is a dispute. In the case of a dispute, I've already posted both dictionary AND computer programming (logic) definitions of OR as well as AND, and stated my understanding of those terms is defensible on this basis. Certainly logical definitions from other sources could also be used to corroborate.


If you give someone the choice of an "OR" statement with no clear qualifier, then the reader will chose the one that makes the most sense to them. Not everyone will see it the same way, and that's why "OR" statements usually need to have clear qualifiers associated with them.

In the case of the Mobil 1 warranty "OR" statement, it's not clear which "OR" choice trumps the other and when and why.
 
With the Champ Labs "OR" statement, the 15K miles applies with TGMO.

here's a short article on logical operators for reference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_connective

Can you explain why Motorking is not qualified to clarify the Champ Labs warranty? He starred in the Champ Labs video on the new CARQUEST oil filter rollout?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-goqCKNhWn4&feature=youtu.be

The video shows he's Technical Training Director of Champ Labs starting at 0:05

Isn't that also his title - Technical Training Director - for Fram?

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jay-buckley/8/a1/903
 
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
With the Champ Labs "OR" statement, the 15K miles applies with TGMO.


So that means his warranty is over at 15,001 miles, even though he's following the exact OEM recommendation, which Mobil 1 also says their warranty covers?

So the "15,000 miles" or statement overrides the OEM recommended service interval? Exactly what in the Mobil 1 warranty statement text qualifies that decision?

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Can you explain why Motorking is not qualified to clarify the Champ Labs warranty? He starred in the Champ Labs video on the new CARQUEST oil filter rollout?


Who said he wasn't qualified? He should be able to answer the question if he's on the Champ Labs team.
 
It was someone with the screen name ZeeOSix

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
I sent Motorking a PM on this with a link to this thread earlier today, so he can respond when he has time available.

My opinion is this doesn't warrant using your red phone, but since you have the red phone & I don't, I'll leave that decision in your hands.


LoL ... what? Yeah, maybe he can clarify at least the Fram statement, which IMO doesn't need any clarification.

It's the Mobil/Champ Labs statement that needs clarification/qualifiers.
 
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
It was someone with the screen name ZeeOSix

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
I sent Motorking a PM on this with a link to this thread earlier today, so he can respond when he has time available.

My opinion is this doesn't warrant using your red phone, but since you have the red phone & I don't, I'll leave that decision in your hands.


LoL ... what? Yeah, maybe he can clarify at least the Fram statement, which IMO doesn't need any clarification.

It's the Mobil/Champ Labs statement that needs clarification/qualifiers.


Did I say he couldn't clarify the Champ Lab statement? You're reading way between the lines.
 
well, you said

lol what

Yeah maybe he can clarify the Fram statement, which IMO doesn't need any clarification.

It's the Mobil / Champ Labs statement that needs clarification

So, here's your opportunity explain what you did mean. I just see what's in the lines, not what's between them.
 
It's simple. The Fram statement is pretty clear ... the Mobil 1 statement is not clear.

I simply said: "It's the Mobil/Champ Labs statement that needs clarification".

How does that translate in to: "Can you explain why Motorking is not qualified to clarify the Champ Labs warranty?"

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
I just see what's in the lines, not what's between them.

I don't think so ...
eek.gif
grin.gif
 
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