Two-cycle oil Formulations

[Bwalker]

That's looked like a much more fundamental dissent, ultimately:



So, referencing some veterans' perspective from before 1930 wrapped around true vaporizers next to fuel brushing devices etc. could only help, I thought.

How a guy that is allegedly a chemist and a two cycle oil formulator cant figure out what happens when a mixture of gasoline and lubricating oil meats hot surfaces under vaccum is beyond me. I really think he had a Ah Ha moment 10 posts ago, but his pride does not allow him to admit he was mistaken.
Then you got the guy that seems to be confused on what state gasoline must be in to burn along with not understanding that change of phase of gasoline inside a two cycle motor provides a significant amount of cooling...

 

[Cujet]

I was actually involved in manufacturer directed oil testing. Although I was not an engineer for the company, just a tech. My fascination with the two stroke engine and study of engineering in college led me to learn as much as I could during my time there. I generally boil it down to oil ratio and HP. We also tested various oil types, seeking any advantage possible. Our engines were 150HP two stroke outboards, and produced more than 300HP in race ready configurations. While I was limited to 80mph verification runs after installing a powerhead, the engines were capable of more than 100MPH. Fire breathing monsters!

I see the back and forth here and note that each individual has valid points. The fact is two stroke engines are now ancient technology and any advancements here and there are rather rare today. My level of practical understanding comes from years of dirt bike racing/riding and my oil testing experiences. Installing powerheads, making sure they run well, pulling them apart so the engineer could measure wear. Our testing included wear protection for the exhaust side of the piston rings, as wear was highest here. Some oils just don't cut it, such as bright stock based two stroke blends. Some oils do a bit better. Down and dirty in the trenches, so to speak.

Back then, on my two stroke dirt bikes, I knew to use plenty of oil and tune accordingly. Today, I'm a 32 to 1 guy in everything, and any high quality EG-D or FD oil is generally fine for my uses. Clean, adequate protection, no drama.

 

[Bwalker]

I was actually involved in manufacturer directed oil testing. Although I was not an engineer for the company, just a tech. My fascination with the two stroke engine and study of engineering in college led me to learn as much as I could during my time there. I generally boil it down to oil ratio and HP. We also tested various oil types, seeking any advantage possible. Our engines were 150HP two stroke outboards, and produced more than 300HP in race ready configurations. While I was limited to 80mph verification runs after installing a powerhead, the engines were capable of more than 100MPH. Fire breathing monsters!

I see the back and forth here and note that each individual has valid points. The fact is two stroke engines are now ancient technology and any advancements here and there are rather rare today. My level of practical understanding comes from years of dirt bike racing/riding and my oil testing experiences. Installing powerheads, making sure they run well, pulling them apart so the engineer could measure wear. Our testing included wear protection for the exhaust side of the piston rings, as wear was highest here. Some oils just don't cut it, such as bright stock based two stroke blends. Some oils do a bit better. Down and dirty in the trenches, so to speak.

Back then, on my two stroke dirt bikes, I knew to use plenty of oil and tune accordingly. Today, I'm a 32 to 1 guy in everything, and any high quality EG-D or FD oil is generally fine for my uses. Clean, adequate protection, no drama.

Cujet, I remember you from DRN years ago. You were into mid bore Husky's if I remember right.
Oils that work well in bikes often dont work so good in things like trimmers and blowers. They can work well in chainsaws. All air cooled power equipment is low BMEP and low load. The exception might be chainsaws when used for things like milling. For trimmers and blowers and oil like Red Armor or Maxima Super M work exceedingly well. In a chainsaw I like Maxima K2. The main thing is to not run a product with castor in it or a heavy weight synthetic like Motul 800 or Klotz R50. Power equipment just does not get hot enough to combust these properly.
BTW one old school syn blend and bright stock based oil that still works acceptable is Golden Spectro. Its not the cleanest, but it works acceptably. Many other better products nowadays.

 

[Pablo]

How a guy that is allegedly a chemist and a two cycle oil formulator cant figure out what happens when a mixture of gasoline and lubricating oil meats hot surfaces under vaccum is beyond me. I really think he had a Ah Ha moment 10 posts ago, but his pride does not allow him to admit he was mistaken.
Then you got the guy that seems to be confused on what state gasoline must be in to burn along with not understanding that change of phase of gasoline inside a two cycle motor provides a significant amount of cooling...

Rather than go into attack mode. Write in EXACT terms why molakule is wrong. Just quotes, then bullets, short if needed. Keep your personality out of it. I will then review and see what I think. In my mind it's all fuzzed up with fuzzy words and personal attacks.

No need to curse just answer the question. The choices would be - the value is XX degrees, or "I don't know."



What you need to do is to actually read and understand what is stated, and to increase your understanding of the physics and chemistry of this process and the timing of these processes.

Rather than go into attack mode. Write in EXACT terms why Bwalker is wrong. Just quotes, then bullets, short if needed. Keep your personality out of it. I will then review and see what I think. In my mind it's all fuzzed up with fuzzy words and personal attacks.

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Not that I am perfect, I just don't see this giant rift or need for the arguing.

 

[Mechanician]

Rather than go into attack mode. Write in EXACT terms why molakule is wrong. Just quotes, then bullets, short if needed. Keep your personality out of it. I will then review and see what I think. In my mind it's all fuzzed up with fuzzy words and personal attacks.



Rather than go into attack mode. Write in EXACT terms why Bwalker is wrong. Just quotes, then bullets, short if needed. Keep your personality out of it. I will then review and see what I think. In my mind it's all fuzzed up with fuzzy words and personal attacks.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Not that I am perfect, I just don't see this giant rift or need for the arguing.

WE need you in the middle East Pablo.
I want to nominate you for this year's FIFA Peace Prize.

 

[Bwalker]

Rather than go into attack mode. Write in EXACT terms why molakule is wrong. Just quotes, then bullets, short if needed. Keep your personality out of it. I will then review and see what I think. In my mind it's all fuzzed up with fuzzy words and personal attacks.



Rather than go into attack mode. Write in EXACT terms why Bwalker is wrong. Just quotes, then bullets, short if needed. Keep your personality out of it. I will then review and see what I think. In my mind it's all fuzzed up with fuzzy words and personal attacks.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Not that I am perfect, I just don't see this giant rift or need for the arguing.

I've already done this...several times.
And the rift is because the guy fancies himself an expert and cant bring himself to do the honorable thing admit he is wrong. You know he is wrong, I know he is wrong and several other guys with a clue know he is wrong. The more he types the more he discredits himself.

 

[MolaKule]

Never said that the oil portion was a gas and you know that. In fact for lubrication to take place at all it depends on the oil not changing phase.

If the oil portion of the premix does not change phase, as you state, then there would be an accumulation of oil in the crankcase. But we know this does not happen. Turn a two cycle engine upside down after operation and see if oil runs out through any of the ports. If the oil doesn't undergo a phase change AND is subsequently combusted, then it would accumulate in the crankcase.

The gasoline portion of the pre mixed fuel changes phase to a gas and the oil portion does not.

See above explanation.

Again, the premix is a low viscosity mixture of lubricating oil mixed with fuel. As the premix droplets (a vapor), is being drawn into the crankcase, they hit some of those hot surfaces and upon contact, some, but not all, of the oil and fuel in the premix turn into a gas phase. But that action lone doesn't increase the temperature of the remaining vapor in the premix.

Compression of the rest of the premix, on the piston's downstroke, further increases the vapor's temperature in order to convert it into a gas for subsequent combustion on the upstroke. So both fuel and oil are combusted during the power stroke. Compression during the upstroke is higher and further raises the gas' temperature.

Compression of any liquid or gas raises its temperature because the energy of the work done on the liquid or gas during compression results in a temperature increase of the liquid or gas' mass. Something called, "conservation of energy." A basic principle of physics.

 

[MolaKule]

Rather than go into attack mode. Write in EXACT terms why Bwalker is wrong. Just quotes, then bullets, short if needed. Keep your personality out of it. I will then review and see what I think. In my mind it's all fuzzed up with fuzzy words and personal attacks.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Not that I am perfect, I just don't see this giant rift or need for the arguing.

Good suggestion and I have done point by point refutation using physical principles in the previous posts.

 

[Mike72]

Q

Here we go agaiin with your circular explanations. So you are saying we have some kind of magical distillation/seperation process going on within the crankcase?

By this statement you still do not understand that the premix is a low viscosity mixture of lubricating oil mixed with fuel and that it is the oil, with its oil film and additives, that actually provides lubrication.

When this mixture is combusted, both oil and fuel are combusted. Before the phase transition of the fuel-oil mixture droplets into a gas, those vapor droplets lubricate the lower rotating components and the rings as the piston moves down past the input port.

Furthermore, since the gas phase contains components of both fuel and oil, it lubricates the upper cylinder walls as the piston moves up for its combustion phase. Fuel alone cannot lubricate the upper cylinder walls which is why a two-cycle oil is mixed with fuel.

How you can magically separate chemical components of the lubricating oil from the fuel in the premix denies reality.

I agree with your statements. There is gasoline and oil on all the moving parts of a operating two cycle engine including cylinder walls, piston, rings, and all the bearings. The gasoline cannot magically separate from the oil instantly, they move through the engine together. With a cold engine, gasoline and oil move through the transfer ports both as gasoline vapor and gasoline and oil droplets.

I believe as the temperature of the metal parts in the engine increases the heat causes the gasoline to keep flashing off leaving the oil which accumulates and lubricates the engine as it runs.With enough heat the oil will also vaporize, but less so than the gasoline.

 

[Bwalker]

If the oil portion of the premix does not change phase, as you state, then there would be an accumulation of oil in the crankcase. But we know this does not happen. Turn a two cycle engine upside down after operation and see if oil runs out through any of the ports. If the oil doesn't undergo a phase change AND is subsequently combusted, then it would accumulate in the crankcase.

See above explanation.

Again, the premix is a low viscosity mixture of lubricating oil mixed with fuel. As the premix droplets (a vapor), is being drawn into the crankcase, they hit some of those hot surfaces and upon contact, some, but not all, of the oil and fuel in the premix turn into a gas phase. But that action lone doesn't increase the temperature of the remaining vapor in the premix.

Compression of the rest of the premix, on the piston's downstroke, further increases the vapor's temperature in order to convert it into a gas for subsequent combustion on the upstroke. So both fuel and oil are combusted during the power stroke. Compression during the upstroke is higher and further raises the gas' temperature.

Compression of any liquid or gas raises its temperature because the energy of the work done on the liquid or gas during compression results in a temperature increase of the liquid or gas' mass. Something called, "conservation of energy." A basic principle of physics.

The oil is swept up out of the crankcase via the transfer ports and into the combustion chamber. The last picture I posted actually shows this. The time it takes for this to happen is dependant on RPM and load. Maxima did a time study on this year's ago and I have attached it. Contemplate what this study is saying.
This isnt earth shattering stuff...very basic.
In addition if you have ever torn into a two cycle motor you would not residual oil coating the surfaces and some pooling in the crankcase. In fact residual oil is one fact that determines the quality of the oils formulation. Echo Red Armor is one oil that is known for excellent residual oil.

I urge you just to do the honorable thing and admit you are in the wrong.

 

[Bwalker]

I agree with your statements. There is gasoline and oil on all the moving parts of a operating two cycle engine including cylinder walls, piston, rings, and all the bearings. The gasoline cannot magically separate from the oil instantly, they move through the engine together. With a cold engine, gasoline and oil move through the transfer ports both as gasoline vapor and gasoline and oil droplets.

I believe as the temperature of the metal parts in the engine increases the heat causes the gasoline to keep flashing off leaving the oil which accumulates and lubricates the engine as it runs.With enough heat the oil will also vaporize, but less so than the gasoline.

What you are saying is Mr. Molakule is indeed wrong based on your second paragraph.
In first paragraph what you described is what happens prior to the engine coming up to operating temperature.

 

[MolaKule]

The oil is swept up out of the crankcase via the transfer ports and into the combustion chamber. The last picture I posted actually shows this. The time it takes for this to happen is dependant on RPM and load. Maxima did a time study on this year's ago and I have attached it. Contemplate what this study is saying.
This isnt earth shattering stuff...very basic.
In addition if you have ever torn into a two cycle motor you would not residual oil coating the surfaces and some pooling in the crankcase. In fact residual oil is one fact that determines the quality of the oils formulation. Echo Red Armor is one oil that is known for excellent residual oil.

I urge you just to do the honorable thing and admit you are in the wrong.
View attachment 334746

Interesting study but Bullets 3 and 4 seem to be contradictory.

Taking bullet 3 this leaves about 100%-96.6% = 3.4% of oil in the crankcase out of X amount of liters of the premix that was passed through the engine. Bullet 4's % add up to 100% of oil retained in the crankcase out of X amount of liters of the premix that was passed through the engine.

For bullet 4, I would like to know how they determined those percentages. The only way I see it could have been done is to somehow weigh the grams of oil on each individual part, divided by the X amount of mass of the premix that was passed through the engine.

Things don't add up.

 

[Bwalker]

Interesting study but Bullets 3 and 4 seem to be contradictory.

Taking bullet 3 this leaves about 100%-96.6% = 3.4% of oil in the crankcase out of X amount of liters of the premix that was passed through the engine. Bullet 4's % add up to 100% of oil retained in the crankcase out of X amount of liters of the premix that was passed through the engine.

For bullet 4, I would like to know how they determined those percentages. The only way I see it could have been done is to somehow weigh the grams of oil on each individual part, divided by the X amount of mass of the premix that was passed through the engine.

Things don't add up.

They did it with radioactive isotopes added to the the oil and tracked by using a gama ray spectrometer.
Bullets three and four track as I would expect. As rpms go up residual goes down.
So yes, things add up.
Other things that decrease migration time are increases in viscosity, oil ratio, additives like PIB, primary compression ratio, and tuned pipe design.

 

[MolaKule]

They did it with radioactive isotopes added to the the oil.

Where was this stated in the MAXIM report? What was the process and the isotope they used?

I am familiar with various isotopic studies of the wear of various parts in 2-stroke engines
as it relates to needed AW components in two-cycle oil formulations.

Bullets three and four track. As rpms go up residual goes down.

I am not questioning the tracking versus rpm, I am questioning the math and looking for an explanation. of the apparent discrepancies.

 

[Bwalker]

Where was this stated in the MAXIM report? What was the process and the isotope they used?

I am familiar with various isotopic studies of the wear of various parts in 2-stroke engines
as it relates to needed AW components in two-cycle oil formulations.

I am not questioning the tracking versus rpm, I am questioning the math and looking for an explanation. of the apparent discrepancies.

Call and ask Maxima. The test is no longer posted on their website btw. You would have to contact them.
I remember the isotope tidbit from when the test was originally released decades ago. Maybe close to 30 years ago?
And you must have not been too familiar because you were puzzled by how the test was done.
There is no apparent discrepancies and honestly you are deflecting again.
You ready to just fess up and honorably say you were mistaken and that perhaps you didn't know as much as you thought you did?

 

[Pablo]

Someone. Anyone beside mola or Bwalk:

Please explain in one or two lines what this LONG debate is about. Let's start there.

 

[Mechanician]

As I recall the disagreement began over the viscosity of the oil when it arrives at it's destination, vs. the original viscosity.
Anther thick vs. thin I'm afraid.

 

[Bwalker]

As I recall the disagreement began over the viscosity of the oil when it arrives at it's destination, vs. the original viscosity.
Anther thick vs. thin I'm afraid.

Boy, thats not it at all.
It started because Mola was unaware that the gasoline and oil seperate inside the crankcase and that liquid gasoline and oil, which has virtually no lubricating capacity is not what lubes the motor. Amongst other things..
You might as well say that everything he has posted in regards to what happens in the motor is false.

 

[MolaKule]

As I recall the disagreement began over the viscosity of the oil when it arrives at it's destination, vs. the original viscosity.
Anther thick vs. thin I'm afraid.

That's about it as I knew that physically this made no sense, among other incorrect statements he made

I think what Pablo is saying is this debate has run its course.

The original purpose of this thread was to provide basic information on 2-cycle oil formulations and maybe it should have been locked after the basic info was presented. A new thread should have been started in the same forum on 2-cycle engine operation.

 

[MolaKule]

Call and ask Maxima. The test is no longer posted on their website btw. You woukd have to contact them.

You introduced it so you should ⁹be able to explain it in addition to the math.

And you must have not been too familiar because you were puzzled by how the test was done.

As I said, I am very familiar with many isotopic tracer studies for lubricants. There was an isotopic tracer study by the SAE in 1972 on exhaust components but that study's numbers don't support the Maxim result.

There is no apparent discrepancies and honestly you are deflecting again.

So you're telling us you can't explain the numbers.