Two-cycle oil Formulations

What I described is exactly what happens.
Which contradictory story should we believe??
That you don't know that is telling.
A guy that allegedly developed a two stroke oil should at least know how one is lubricated. So you can wax on all you want about chemistry if that horns you up, but you clearly dont know what your talking about.
You still have not answered some basic questions:

Q1: How much evaporative cooling (temperature reduction if you wish) does the premix provide? Recall that you were the one who injected this topic into the discussion.

The premix is a solution that contains a mixture of 2-cycle oil and fuel.

Q2: At what location and time in the 2-cycle process are you separating the oil's components from the fuel's components as you have stated??
 
Which contradictory story should we believe??

You still have not answered some basic questions:

Q1: How much evaporative cooling (temperature reduction if you wish) does the premix provide? Recall that you were the one who injected this topic into the discussion.

The premix is a solution that contains a mixture of 2-cycle oil and fuel.

Q2: At what location and time in the 2-cycle process are you separating the oil's components from the fuel's components as you have stated??
I've not contradicted myself at all.
In regards to question #1. You research that yourself. My statement stands until you prove otherwise. I have no sort of morbid interest on it other than I know it happens as I described. In addition I believe you know it happens too. (edit - MOD)
In regards to Q2.. as I have stated repeatedly now... Premixed fuel enters the crankcase in liquid droplet form. The heat from the motor changes the phase of the gasoline component of the pre mixed fuel into a gas and the oil is thus deposited on the rotating assembly by virtue of the fact that two cycle oil changes phase at much higher temps than gasoline. Proper lubrication is dependent on this change of phase as gasoline(a solvent) and 1.96% oil(50:1 ratio) has nearly zero lubricating ability. Likewise combustion is dependent on the gasoline being in a gas form prior to the sparkplug firing as liquid fuel will not ignite. This is detailed in an article I posted by a Harvard physics graduate BTW.
Are you grasping this? A simple yes or no while suffice. No need for a several hundred word diatribe in regards to a very basic concept that has been known about for a hundred years. No deflection or redirection, just a simple answer.

In addition to this. You do realise that any IC engine has to phase change its fuel prior to combustion occuring? In a 4 cycle gasoline port injection or carbureted engine this happens in the intake runner. In a GDI engine this happens in the combustion chamber. In a DI diesel it likewise occurs in the combustion chamber. In a two cycle it occurs in the crankcase.
 
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Deleted will not post video it is a excellent video of what happens in a 2stroke engine only could post a screen shot. TheRepairSpecialist
Screenshot_20260425_200950_Google.webp
 
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I've not contradicted myself at all.
In regards to question #1. You research that yourself. My statement stands until you prove otherwise. I have no sort of morbid interest on it other than I know it happens as I described. In addition I believe you know it happens too. (edit - MOD)

No need to curse just answer the question. The choices would be - the value is XX degrees, or "I don't know."


In regards to Q2.. as I have stated repeatedly now... Premixed fuel enters the crankcase in liquid droplet form. The heat from the motor changes the phase of the gasoline component of the pre mixed fuel into a gas and the oil is thus deposited on the rotating assembly by virtue of the fact that two cycle oil changes phase at much higher temps than gasoline. Proper lubrication is dependent on this change of phase as gasoline(a solvent) and 1.96% oil(50:1 ratio) has nearly zero lubricating ability. Likewise combustion is dependent on the gasoline being in a gas form prior to the sparkplug firing as liquid fuel will not ignite. This is detailed in an article I posted by a Harvard physics graduate BTW.
Are you grasping this? A simple yes or no while suffice. No need for a several hundred word diatribe in regards to a very basic concept that has been known about for a hundred years. No deflection or redirection, just a simple answer.

In addition to this. You do realise that any IC engine has to phase change its fuel prior to combustion occuring? In a 4 cycle gasoline port injection or carbureted engine this happens in the intake runner. In a GDI engine this happens in the combustion chamber. In a DI diesel it likewise occurs in the combustion chamber. In a two cycle it occurs in the crankcase.
The viscosity of the the oil once inside the motor is the viscosity of the oil prior to mixing with gasoline minus the effect of any solvents added for miscability. On other words fairly thick.
In post 64 you incorrectly understood viscosity and a lubrication concepts which I had to correct:

"Gasoline has an average viscosity of 0.75 cSt at 40C, 2-cycle oils average about 46 cSt at 40C (about a 20 grade).

At a 40:1 ratio there is no way the final 2-cycle oil/gas mix is going to still be a 20 grade oil going into the engine.
The reason for this is once the fuel/air charge enters a two cycle motor at operating temps...
The fuel mix enters the engine at a bit less than atmospheric pressure and at about atmospheric temperature. The carb atomizes (breaks fuel into small particles), it emulsifies (mixes fuel with air), and then vaporizes (changes into a rarefied form). The carburetor is what creates the phase change from liquid to vapor.

the solvent in the oil and the gasoline changes phase from liquid droplets to vapors and thus deposits the two cycle oil of the pre mixed fuel on the rotating assembly. As you noted the viscosity of premixed fuel is very low and in additional has very little lubricating ability. If not for this phase change and the resulting deposition of oil the engine wouldn't last long.
A combination of the oil's base mix and the additives in the premix is what lubricates the rotating and reciprocating components."

In post 65 you said, "Vapor is the only thing the spark plug can ignite, so a choke is also used in a effort to flood the motor with enough fuel so that enough vapors exist that they can be lit off. " In 102 above you said, "Likewise combustion is dependent on the gasoline being in a gas form prior to the sparkplug firing as liquid fuel will not ignite." So what ignites in combustion, the vapor phase or the gas phase?

In actuality, the carb converts premix and air into a vapor, after which the piston moves down to compress the mixture. This compression, which you never included in the process, raises the temperature of the vapor; plus the residual (added) heat from the crankcase increases the temperature of the mix to form a gas which is ignited at the power stroke

In post 90 you said, :"Hint..its not lubricated by liquid gasoline with a smattering of oil in it. Its lubricated by oil deposited when the fuel entering the crankcase changes phase from a liquid to a gas." So in your scenario, the oil somehow magically separates from the premix and deposits on the rotating components.

The fuel/air mix enters the bottom part of the crankcase as a vapor (see my comprehensive explanation above). As this point the fuel-oil droplets deposits on the various components, lubricating them. A short time later, the piston moves down to compress the vapor below it; the combination of compression and residual crankcase heat results in a phase change converting most, but not all, of the residual vapor to a gas. As the piston moves up the gas below the piston is allowed to enter the "combustion chamber" for ignition, the power stroke.

What you need to do is to actually read and understand what is stated, and to increase your understanding of the physics and chemistry of this process and the timing of these processes.
 
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Premixed fuel enters the crankcase in liquid droplet form. The heat from the motor changes the phase
Contending that little to no evaporation takes place after the venturi, down the intake runner in low pressure (no matter how short that may be on a two cycle) and that all fuel remains in a liquid droplet state until it enters the crankcase, is a tough position to defend.
But you tried.
 
I've not contradicted myself at all.
In regards to question #1. You research that yourself. My statement stands until you prove otherwise. I have no sort of morbid interest on it other than I know it happens as I described. In addition I believe you know it happens too. Your just being a pain in the ass.
In regards to Q2.. as I have stated repeatedly now... Premixed fuel enters the crankcase in liquid droplet form. The heat from the motor changes the phase of the gasoline component of the pre mixed fuel into a gas and the oil is thus deposited on the rotating assembly by virtue of the fact that two cycle oil changes phase at much higher temps than gasoline. Proper lubrication is dependent on this change of phase as gasoline(a solvent) and 1.96% oil(50:1 ratio) has nearly zero lubricating ability. Likewise combustion is dependent on the gasoline being in a gas form prior to the sparkplug firing as liquid fuel will not ignite. This is detailed in an article I posted by a Harvard physics graduate BTW.
Are you grasping this? A simple yes or no while suffice. No need for a several hundred word diatribe in regards to a very basic concept that has been known about for a hundred years. No deflection or redirection, just a simple answer.

In addition to this. You do realise that any IC engine has to phase change its fuel prior to combustion occuring? In a 4 cycle gasoline port injection or carbureted engine this happens in the intake runner. In a GDI engine this happens in the combustion chamber. In a DI diesel it likewise occurs in the combustion chamber. In a two cycle it occurs in the crankcase.

Your explanations remain correct. A short passage of age old Shell texting (lines 30 - 47 or so of first column in the .pdf from there) will suffice to make clear that fine mist produced in the carb will begin to lose gasoline and coalesce in mainly the freed lubricating components to migrate, even splash, if we will: https://patents.google.com/patent/US3179093A/en

Establishing much vaporisation wouldn't make sense unless there were really really cold engine parts everywhere to better reach via condensation.
 
Your explanations remain correct. A short passage of age old Shell texting (lines 30 - 47 or so of first column in the .pdf from there) will suffice to make clear that fine mist produced in the carb will begin to lose gasoline and coalesce in mainly the freed lubricating components to migrate, even splash, if we will: https://patents.google.com/patent/US3179093A/en

Establishing much vaporisation wouldn't make sense unless there were really really cold engine parts everywhere to better reach via condensation.
What I have stated repeatedly now has been well known for years.
 
Contending that little to no evaporation takes place after the venturi, down the intake runner in low pressure (no matter how short that may be on a two cycle) and that all fuel remains in a liquid droplet state until it enters the crankcase, is a tough position to defend.
But you tried.
Once again...
The fuel after it leaves the carb is definitely in liquid droplet form. Carbs are very crude and if you look unto the bore of one while running it looks more like a garden hose than a mist generator. Once it leaves the carb it is in the crankcase.. Its here that the liquid droplets meet the hot rotating assembly. The gasoline changes phase and the oil by virtue of being less volatile than gasoline is deposited.
This is exactly what happens. So yes, little to no phase change occurs at the carb.... if it did you would not need a choke!
 
No need to curse just answer the question. The choices would be - the value is XX degrees, or "I don't know."



In post 64 you incorrectly understood viscosity and a lubrication concepts which I had to correct:

"Gasoline has an average viscosity of 0.75 cSt at 40C, 2-cycle oils average about 46 cSt at 40C (about a 20 grade).

At a 40:1 ratio there is no way the final 2-cycle oil/gas mix is going to still be a 20 grade oil going into the engine.

The fuel mix enters the engine at a bit less than atmospheric pressure and at about atmospheric temperature. The carb atomizes (breaks fuel into small particles), it emulsifies (mixes fuel with air), and then vaporizes (changes into a rarefied form). The carburetor is what creates the phase change from liquid to vapor.


A combination of the oil's base mix and the additives in the premix is what lubricates the rotating and reciprocating components."

In post 65 you said, "Vapor is the only thing the spark plug can ignite, so a choke is also used in a effort to flood the motor with enough fuel so that enough vapors exist that they can be lit off. " In 102 above you said, "Likewise combustion is dependent on the gasoline being in a gas form prior to the sparkplug firing as liquid fuel will not ignite." So what ignites in combustion, the vapor phase or the gas phase?

In actuality, the carb converts premix and air into a vapor, after which the piston moves down to compress the mixture. This compression, which you never included in the process, raises the temperature of the vapor; plus the residual (added) heat from the crankcase increases the temperature of the mix to form a gas which is ignited at the power stroke

In post 90 you said, :"Hint..its not lubricated by liquid gasoline with a smattering of oil in it. Its lubricated by oil deposited when the fuel entering the crankcase changes phase from a liquid to a gas." So in your scenario, the oil somehow magically separates from the premix and deposits on the rotating components.

The fuel/air mix enters the bottom part of the crankcase as a vapor (see my comprehensive explanation above). As this point the fuel-oil droplets deposits on the various components, lubricating them. A short time later, the piston moves down to compress the vapor below it; the combination of compression and residual crankcase heat results in a phase change converting most, but not all, of the residual vapor to a gas. As the piston moves up the gas below the piston is allowed to enter the "combustion chamber" for ignition, the power stroke.

What you need to do is to actually read and understand what is stated, and to increase your understanding of the physics and chemistry of this process and the timing of these processes.
I made no such error. The viscosity of the oil inside the motor is the same as it comes out of the bottle, less any diluent that flashes. So you didnt correct anything. You just proved once again that you dont know what your talking about. You have a complete lack of understanding in regards to what's happening inside a two cycle. You are diminishing your reputation here by making such arguments.
An honorable man would just admit his error and move on.
Attached is a pic of residual oil inside a motor(at transfer port discharge). This was taken as soon as the motor was turned off after operating under full load for an extended period.
Im not seeing any liquid gasoline here and the viscosity looks very similar to what it is when it comes out of the bottle. Just like said.
20260319_200435.webp
 
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Your explanations remain correct. A short passage of age old Shell texting (lines 30 - 47 or so of first column in the .pdf from there) will suffice to make clear that fine mist produced in the carb will begin to lose gasoline and coalesce in mainly the freed lubricating components to migrate, even splash, if we will: https://patents.google.com/patent/US3179093A/en

Establishing much vaporisation wouldn't make sense unless there were really really cold engine parts everywhere to better reach via condensation.
Thank you excellent explanation
 
It's just that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", MolaKule probably meant to remind us of.
 
It's just that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", MolaKule probably meant to remind us of.
Except we are talking about 1930's technology here.
I have followed Molakule on this site for over 20 years. He has an excellent grasp of chemistry and formulation of 4 cycle motor oils. However, he is out in the weeds in this case.
 
That's looked like a much more fundamental dissent, ultimately:

Q

So you are saying we have some kind of magical distillation/seperation process going on within the crankcase?

[...]

How you can magically separate chemical components of the lubricating oil from the fuel in the premix denies reality.

So, referencing some veterans' perspective from before 1930 wrapped around true vaporizers next to fuel brushing devices etc. could only help, I thought.
 
"So what ignites in combustion, the vapor phase or the gas phase?"

@ Molakuke BTW the definition of vapor is a liquid thats changed phase to a gas. Compressing gases tends to convert them back to the liquids the changed phase from BTW. We do this all the time in oil refining.
 
You are both correct.

You mix oil and gasoline, regardless of the additives in both, you have a solution.

Solution: "A homogeneous mixture of two or more substances, which may be solids, liquids, gases, or a combination of these."

What burns? What lubricates?

Both!

On relatively hot surfaces, what vaporizes first? The lightest fractions, which of course is mostly gasoline.
 
You are both correct.

You mix oil and gasoline, regardless of the additives in both, you have a solution.

Solution: "A homogeneous mixture of two or more substances, which may be solids, liquids, gases, or a combination of these."

What burns? What lubricates?

Both!

On relatively hot surfaces, what vaporizes first? The lightest fractions, which of course is mostly gasoline.
What happens in a two cycle is exactly like I described. Molakuke is certainly not right, but I am.
In you regards to your statement "What burns? What lubricated? Both!" The two cycle oil both burns and lubricates. The gasoline burns, but lubricates nothing.
And of course when exposed to hot surfaces and under a slight vacuum the gasoline in liquid droplet form changes phase to a gas leaving the heavier lubricating oil minus its diluent( which is why a low flash diluent is preferred) is left behind to lubricate. Thats exactly how a two stroke is lubricated. I am glad you understand that. Maybe we can get Molakule on board?
 
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