true synthetic oil

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Base oil quality is no longer defined by just three simple categories consisting of conventional, semi-synthetic, and synthetic. With the introduction of new processes and feed stocks over the past dozen years, we now have numerous base oils grades and blends thereof, resulting in a continuum of base oil quality, such as:

Grp I
Grp I & II blend
Grp I & III blend
Grp II
Grp II & III blend
Grp II+
Grp III
Grp III & IV blend
Grp III+
Grp III & IV & V blend
Grp III+ & IV & V blend
Grp IV & V blend

While the exact quality order of such base oil selections is debatable and dependent on component grade and ratios, the point is that the quality steps are now so small as to make labels such as semi-synthetic and synthetic difficult if not impossible to place. The industry chose to draw a line between Grp II and Grp III in defining “synthetic”, but the difference is merely a single VI point, and therefore meaningless from a performance standpoint.

Certainly there is a meaningful difference between the low end and high end of the spectrum, such as Grp I vs a Grp IV/V blend, but the difference between adjacent levels, and really even levels that are three, four, or five apart, is easily blurred by the additive system.

Hence, the great debate over “synthetic” versus “true synthetic” is dead. The use of the word synthetic today only signifies that the base oil blend leans toward the higher end of quality continuum, and translating that further into finished oil performance becomes a stretch.

Unless you have a special engine or driving conditions, you are better served concentrating on specifications and approvals rather than base oils for estimating oil performance.

Tom NJ


Tom, that's great !! We could designate our synthetics on a scale of 1 to 10 ......
Grp 1 & 2 blend could be "Full Synthetic (1) Oil"
Grp 2 & 3 blend could be "Full Synthetic (2) Oil"
..etc....etc.

No.. wait... that would be far too simple and straightforward

That wouldn't work, since a Group I and II mix contains no synthetic oil, and a II and III mix would be a synthetic blend.


Come on, it could at least be a "conventional" blend.

 

[teddyboy]

Originally Posted By: Johnny


This post should put an end to the debate, but Lord knows it won't.


I think we should take up a collection and give a prize to the OP who starts the 1,000,000th thread on this subject.

 

[electrolover]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Pablo
It's not even worth worrying about "true synthetic oil" anymore. It really isn't.

^^ This.


that just about says it all

 

[pzev]

An oil either works or it doesn't...even the best base oils can be part of a [censored] final product. Choose based on results, not imaginings of performance based on some magical group number.

 

[A_Harman]

A pleasant-faced man comes up to you in the street carrying two bowls of unidentified liquids. For $5 he offers to let you stick your hand in one of them. So you, being a careful consumer, say "What's in the bowls? Can I see some specifications? How do I know whether it's lanolin, which will soothe my dry, chapped hand, or battery acid, which will horribly burn my hand?"

He says "Why worry about specifications? It's the final reult that counts." Do you want to do business with this pleasant-faced man?

 

[Quattro Pete]

That's not a good analogy, IMO. First of all, you pay to buy oil, and not receive money for it. Second, it clearly does say on the bottle that it is motor oil and not milk or cat litter.

In your example, it would be like asking the man to give you the chemical composition of lanolin to determine what type of lanolin it was.

 

[A_Harman]

Sorry if the wording was vague, but I did mean that you would pay him the $5.

 

[350zriot]

so basically you don't know which oil is the best (disregarding whether true synthetic, synthetic or conventional) unless your get the UOA test done?
UOA test recommends you to use same engine oil for at least two interval before getting it done.

Is there a way to find out if, let's say, 5w30 is thicker than 5w40? or that's never the case?

Can Mobile 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40, castrol 5w40 or Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-40 be well used in VQ35DE for daily drive and drifting in CA?

 

[A_Harman]

40-weight oils are thicker than 30-weight oils. That's guaranteed by the SAE J300 specification. You don't need to do Used Oil Analysis to find that out. Just look at the oil spec sheets.

My recommendation for a 40-weight for your VQ35DE would be Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w40.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: 350zriot
so basically you don't know which oil is the best (disregarding whether true synthetic, synthetic or conventional) unless your get the UOA test done?
UOA test recommends you to use same engine oil for at least two interval before getting it done.

Not even that. Most UOAs (the $20-$30 ones) are pretty much useless for figuring out how well an oil worked. You have to pony up for the more expensive ones ($60 and UP), and even then all you get is a rough idea.

REALLY figuring out which oil is best requires a LOT of work; most people and shops don't have the knowledge or the means to do it right.

It sounds like you're trying to find an oil for your 350Z. How much do you care? Are you willing to spend time and money on it, or do you just want to find something you'll feel good about?

 

[350zriot]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: 350zriot
so basically you don't know which oil is the best (disregarding whether true synthetic, synthetic or conventional) unless your get the UOA test done?
UOA test recommends you to use same engine oil for at least two interval before getting it done.

Not even that. Most UOAs (the $20-$30 ones) are pretty much useless for figuring out how well an oil worked. You have to pony up for the more expensive ones ($60 and UP), and even then all you get is a rough idea.

REALLY figuring out which oil is best requires a LOT of work; most people and shops don't have the knowledge or the means to do it right.

It sounds like you're trying to find an oil for your 350Z. How much do you care? Are you willing to spend time and money on it, or do you just want to find something you'll feel good about?

I care about which engine oil i use because i want to keep my engine healthy. No blowing engine up because oil gets to thin or whatever..

 

[350zriot]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
40-weight oils are thicker than 30-weight oils. That's guaranteed by the SAE J300 specification. You don't need to do Used Oil Analysis to find that out. Just look at the oil spec sheets.

My recommendation for a 40-weight for your VQ35DE would be Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w40.

why 10w40 instead of 5w40?

 

[d00df00d]

Here's the question I asked:
Quote:
Are you willing to spend time and money on it, or do you just want to find something you'll feel good about?

I'm assuming it's the second one. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Look in your owner's manual and note the viscosity grade and API/ILSAC ratings it specifies. Then, go to the shelf and pick anything that meets those specs, has "synthetic" on the bottle, and has a design you like.

There may be differences among different brands, but you and your engine would never notice them.

 

[A_Harman]

My experience so far with M1 TDT 5w40 in my truck has been high oil consumption, about a quart every 1500 miles. This is much higher consumption than I had with VPB Classic.

My experience with M1 5w30 HM in my Camaro was very low oil consumption, only 1/2-quart in 5500 miles. This is much lower consumption than I had with standard M1 5w30.

Since you live in SoCal, you don't need the low-temperature flow characteristics of a 0 or 5w oil.

The HTHS of HM 10w40 is 4.06, while for TDT 5w40, it is 3.8. This means higher oil film thickness in your bearings.

The Flash point of TDT is 215C, and for HM 10w40, it is 240C.

Because of the lower viscosity spread, HM 10w40 would be slightly more shear resistant than TDT. And since the Nissan V6 engine is notorious for shearing oils, you need all the protection you can get.

Check out this sad story of a Nissan V6:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/my-rod-bearings-after-a-hpde.131922/

 

[lexus114]

Originally Posted By: 350zriot
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: 350zriot
so basically you don't know which oil is the best (disregarding whether true synthetic, synthetic or conventional) unless your get the UOA test done?
UOA test recommends you to use same engine oil for at least two interval before getting it done.

Not even that. Most UOAs (the $20-$30 ones) are pretty much useless for figuring out how well an oil worked. You have to pony up for the more expensive ones ($60 and UP), and even then all you get is a rough idea.

REALLY figuring out which oil is best requires a LOT of work; most people and shops don't have the knowledge or the means to do it right.

It sounds like you're trying to find an oil for your 350Z. How much do you care? Are you willing to spend time and money on it, or do you just want to find something you'll feel good about?

I care about which engine oil i use because i want to keep my engine healthy. No blowing engine up because oil gets to thin or whatever..




And when was the last time you heard of this happening? I cant remember any.

 

[Scuderia]

Originally Posted By: FL_Rob
If you want to spend the money,Motul 300V or Redline are two options and both are ester based.To what ratio???????
Is there a big difference? Yes,but you would need to be racing in 24 hours of LeMans or the Rolex 24hour at Daytona to need that kind of difference.Dont 'drive' yourself nuts on this.
And good luck racing.


There was thread a while back where someone saw most of the teams in the Rolex 24 Hours using regular, walmart grade, Mobil 1 in their million dollar engines. To me that sealed the deal as to what to put in my Civic Si.

 

[Gene K]

While I suspect the Shell Helix Ultra in a Ferrari F1 car and SuperTech Sythetic at the local WalMart are both GIII I doubt they are on the same performance level.

I also doubt that the basestock in run of the mill Royal Purple automatically makes it better than that Shell.

 

[raytseng]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
That's not a good analogy, IMO. First of all, you pay to buy oil, and not receive money for it. Second, it clearly does say on the bottle that it is motor oil and not milk or cat litter.

In your example, it would be like asking the man to give you the chemical composition of lanolin to determine what type of lanolin it was.

Given the complex chemical processes to create any modern oil labelled "synthetic", I think the more apt analogy would be asking was the animal from which this lanolin was producced grass-fed or grain-fed?

 

[350zriot]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
My experience so far with M1 TDT 5w40 in my truck has been high oil consumption, about a quart every 1500 miles. This is much higher consumption than I had with VPB Classic.

My experience with M1 5w30 HM in my Camaro was very low oil consumption, only 1/2-quart in 5500 miles. This is much lower consumption than I had with standard M1 5w30.

Since you live in SoCal, you don't need the low-temperature flow characteristics of a 0 or 5w oil.

The HTHS of HM 10w40 is 4.06, while for TDT 5w40, it is 3.8. This means higher oil film thickness in your bearings.

The Flash point of TDT is 215C, and for HM 10w40, it is 240C.

Because of the lower viscosity spread, HM 10w40 would be slightly more shear resistant than TDT. And since the Nissan V6 engine is notorious for shearing oils, you need all the protection you can get.

Check out this sad story of a Nissan V6:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/my-rod-bearings-after-a-hpde.131922/

Could you tell me what all those letters stand for? like..TDT, HD and such
i'm surprised that mobil 1 5w40 lost more oil than 5w 30.
Shouldn't thicker oil lose less over time?

I was searching around autozone website, annd i noticed that they sell mobil 1 clean 5000 10w40 for half the price of other engine oil. why...?lool

 

[Greggy_D]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Base oil quality is no longer defined by just three simple categories consisting of conventional, semi-synthetic, and synthetic. With the introduction of new processes and feed stocks over the past dozen years, we now have numerous base oils grades and blends thereof, resulting in a continuum of base oil quality, such as:

Grp I
Grp I & II blend
Grp I & III blend
Grp II
Grp II & III blend
Grp II+
Grp III
Grp III & IV blend
Grp III+
Grp III & IV & V blend
Grp III+ & IV & V blend
Grp IV & V blend

While the exact quality order of such base oil selections is debatable and dependent on component grade and ratios, the point is that the quality steps are now so small as to make labels such as semi-synthetic and synthetic difficult if not impossible to place. The industry chose to draw a line between Grp II and Grp III in defining “synthetic”, but the difference is merely a single VI point, and therefore meaningless from a performance standpoint.

Certainly there is a meaningful difference between the low end and high end of the spectrum, such as Grp I vs a Grp IV/V blend, but the difference between adjacent levels, and really even levels that are three, four, or five apart, is easily blurred by the additive system.

Hence, the great debate over “synthetic” versus “true synthetic” is dead. The use of the word synthetic today only signifies that the base oil blend leans toward the higher end of quality continuum, and translating that further into finished oil performance becomes a stretch.

Unless you have a special engine or driving conditions, you are better served concentrating on specifications and approvals rather than base oils for estimating oil performance.

Tom NJ


I love when Tom comes in here and knocks one out of the park.

Well done.