Truck Double Standard

[supton]

Originally Posted By: gman2304
If everyone sold their trucks and bought compact cars there would be a lot of 'pre-aye' on the streets and highways with mattresses, fire wood, furniture, gas grills, 4x8 sheets of plywood, lawn equipment, etc, strapped to they're roofs. How safe would that be ?


Could be pretty safe, if they spent more than 30 seconds securing.

Most likely, many would buy a folding 4x8 trailer, and tuck it away someplace. Or make friends with someone who has one. It is very say to lend out a trailer, afterall.

Actually, I bet if this was the case, it'd become easy and cheap to rent a trailer. HD etc might have a fleet of them for cheap rental.

 

[expat]

Originally Posted By: jimbrewer
Thirty years ago, there was a thriving market for small trucks that cost about as much as the cheapest cars. Really handy vehicles. They are all at least $4,000 over the "cheapest car on the lot" price, and obsolescent to boot. So you really don't have much to choose from



Tell me about it.

That's why I ended up buying the best 30 year oil Toyota extra cab, 5 speed 22r I could find.
It for fills 99.9% of my trucking needs (better than most, high bed 'modern' trucks, yet is economical (32 imp mpg) and maneuverable enough to also be used as personal transport.

If i could buy something new like that, perhaps with a small TDI engine, I'd be all over it.

 

[moving2]

Originally Posted By: expat
You want a small economical work truck with a low bed height like the Suzuki Carry
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Suzuki_Carry_1989.jpg

Sorry your Nanny state won't let you.


If they can meet safety requirements and demand exists, why not?


Originally Posted By: expat
How about a mid sized truck with an efficient 4 cyl TDI,
the EPA won't let you.


If they can meet emissions requirements and demand exists, why not?


Originally Posted By: expat
How about a plain Jane, low bed , 6 cyl , F150 with vinyl Floor covering? The fashion police won't let you.


Not hard to find at places that do a lot of fleet sales, as that's where you find those types of buyers.


Originally Posted By: expat
People buy what they are sold. We are SOLD Big, inflated, macho image, gas guzzlers because some white collar bean counter figures that's where the $ is. It's cheaper to sell image than substance.


Flip side of the coin: automakers sell what buyers want. They want to make a profit, right? Hence, selling only overpriced, fancy vehicles fewer people will buy may not be profit maximizing- a balance exists here between volume and profit per vehicle. I think a more accurate statement would be that most non-fleet consumers don't want the barebones vehicles you describe. More consumers want the "Big, inflated, macho image, gas guzzlers" because...that's what they want.

 

[CurtisB]

I am a better driver in a boxy pickup plain and simple. The mirrors are typically better designed, I have full view of my hood and I can see the edge of my rear bumper indicating the very rear of my vehicle.

Getting rid of my wife's old Chevy Cobalt was a blessing. Small economical cars get wonderful gas mileage for sure, when you are traveling on a plowed main route. Problem is you eventually have to park...than you are stuck. Stuck vehicles get 0 mpg. I used to call my wife's car the Flintstone mobile because it required manual pushing and shoving to get it moving come winter, even with brand name narrow/tall snow tires.

It never fails, every huge snow dump we get most small/low to the ground eco-cars and even some AWD SUVs are stuck where they where last parked, all achieving 0 mpg. My old 2wd regular cab long box (keeping about 300-400Lbs over the rear end) always managed to get me to work even on the absolute worst of days. I even had to chain it up sometimes. I since put a Detroit locker in it and have never needed to chain up since. How uneconomical of me, spending $20 on gas to make $400 at work in return.

I do most of my own preventative repairs/maintenance, and base model pickups are notoriously easy to work on. Repairs are inevitable, and doing it myself saves money and better fits into my life schedule. My wifes Chevy Cobalt went to the dealer because every job was a god awful PITA.

In the eye of this beholder, I see best utility value and ROI in a base model 1/2 ton pickup than any other vehicle available. You just have to look beyond the gas mileage as the only cost of ownership. My trucks are commuters, and yet the rare occurrence when I do need to move something it always ends up being large enough that it warrants the need for a large cargo space as that in a pickup. As for passengers, it's just me my wife and my dog. Typically I assume the male role and drive, my wife rides shotgun and my dog sits in the jump seat. Three passengers and three seats in a regular cab just perfect. Even as a vehicle used almost solely for commuting pickup trucks just work best for me. For you? Perhaps not, make your choice and I will make mine

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Miller88

A prius, provided you understand that the Lithium battery is NOT as clean as you think, isn't a bad purchase. I don't care for all of the added complexity and electronics, but they do have a low cost of ownership.

There is nothing smart about a smart car. Expensive, gets poor mileage ... There are numerous other city cars (even in the US!) that get better mileage and are cheaper to purchase and maintain.


They are okay with a prius because it "doesn't burn fossil fuels as much" ... the battery materials are mined all over the world, shipped to Japan on a ship that burns tar, then shipped to the US on another ship that burns tar.

If you really want to be "green" buy a Civic HX that has been here 20 years.

Funny that only some of the very most recent prii have li-ion, others have NiMH. Best to check facts before saying things that aren't true.

How about a link disclosing the "dirtiness" of Li-ion? Lets see... Steel, aluminum and copper, some graphite, some small amount of VOCs and some metal oxides.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Miller88

A prius, provided you understand that the Lithium battery is NOT as clean as you think, isn't a bad purchase. I don't care for all of the added complexity and electronics, but they do have a low cost of ownership.

There is nothing smart about a smart car. Expensive, gets poor mileage ... There are numerous other city cars (even in the US!) that get better mileage and are cheaper to purchase and maintain.


They are okay with a prius because it "doesn't burn fossil fuels as much" ... the battery materials are mined all over the world, shipped to Japan on a ship that burns tar, then shipped to the US on another ship that burns tar.

If you really want to be "green" buy a Civic HX that has been here 20 years.

Funny that only some of the very most recent prii have li-ion, others have NiMH. Best to check facts before saying things that aren't true.

How about a link disclosing the "dirtiness" of Li-ion? Lets see... Steel, aluminum and copper, some graphite, some small amount of VOCs and some metal oxides.


Your quoting of what I said is a bit odd here. But it's ok, I know what I said and what you said...

Quote:
They are okay with a prius because it "doesn't burn fossil fuels as much" ... the battery materials are mined all over the world, shipped to Japan on a ship that burns tar, then shipped to the US on another ship that burns tar.

If you really want to be "green" buy a Civic HX that has been here 20 years.


So a ship that takes other raw materials like iron ore, aluminum ore, copper ore, titanium ore, etc to Japan for use in sheet metal, engine blocks, wiring, paint pigments, etc. is ok, but as soon as a small fraction of that mass of essentially the same materials set is to be used in a battery, now it's bad?

Again, batteries (li-ion) consist of a steel or aluminum can, a graphite anode, a metal oxide cathode, and current collectors made of aluminum and coper. Some slight chemical variations aside, not unlike many of the materials already used in vehicles. Sure, NiMh may have a few other things not as common, but reduced tonnage of sulfur and hydrocarbons more than makes up for anything else.

I don't buy your argument, sorry.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: expat

People buy what they are sold. We are SOLD Big, inflated, macho image, gas guzzlers because some white collar bean counter figures that's where the $ is.
It's cheaper to sell image than substance.


You can bet if the clientele demanded 'stripper' vehicles the mfgrs would sell them. Overwhelming demand is why gizmo laden vehicles are the norm now. Applies to cars AND trucks...

 

[whip]

Using Edmunds True Cost of Ownership site, I compared a 2010 Camaro to a 2010 Silverdao. For some reason, it doesn't have a Camaro newer than 2010, so that's what I used.

Silverdao extended cab LT with 5.3L
http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/silverado-1500/2010/tco.html?style=101221121&zip=44444
Total cost; $44,459

Camaro 1SS with 6.2L
http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/camaro/2010/tco.html?style=101110011
Total cost; $44,229

There's a difference of $230.00 between a Camaro and a Silverado. If you factor in the additional things a truck can do, I'd say it comes out as a more sensible purchase.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: expat

People buy what they are sold. We are SOLD Big, inflated, macho image, gas guzzlers because some white collar bean counter figures that's where the $ is.
It's cheaper to sell image than substance.


You can bet if the clientele demanded 'stripper' vehicles the mfgrs would sell them. Overwhelming demand is why gizmo laden vehicles are the norm now. Applies to cars AND trucks...


I think I only agree to 50%. Most buyers make a somewhat snap decision to buy, and buy off the lot. If they are willing to shop various lots, then they are still buying from inventory. And I doubt many are going to order a stripper, as they then lose negotiating advantage, and think they will get shafted on the buy.

Dealers make an increased profit too off the more expensive models. So I suspect they have little reason to order stripper models.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: expat

People buy what they are sold. We are SOLD Big, inflated, macho image, gas guzzlers because some white collar bean counter figures that's where the $ is.
It's cheaper to sell image than substance.


You can bet if the clientele demanded 'stripper' vehicles the mfgrs would sell them. Overwhelming demand is why gizmo laden vehicles are the norm now. Applies to cars AND trucks...


I think I only agree to 50%. Most buyers make a somewhat snap decision to buy, and buy off the lot. If they are willing to shop various lots, then they are still buying from inventory. And I doubt many are going to order a stripper, as they then lose negotiating advantage, and think they will get shafted on the buy.

Dealers make an increased profit too off the more expensive models. So I suspect they have little reason to order stripper models.


Kinda my point. No demand means few produced. Just like manual trans and other details. If no one wants them then they will soon stop selling them...

 

[kschachn]

It is more sensible, but only if you want a... truck

Originally Posted By: whip
There's a difference of $230.00 between a Camaro and a Silverado. If you factor in the additional things a truck can do, I'd say it comes out as a more sensible purchase.

 

[jimbrewer]

Originally Posted By: whip
Using Edmunds True Cost of Ownership site, I compared a 2010 Camaro to a 2010 Silverdao. For some reason, it doesn't have a Camaro newer than 2010, so that's what I used.

Silverdao extended cab LT with 5.3L
http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/silverado-1500/2010/tco.html?style=101221121&zip=44444
Total cost; $44,459

Camaro 1SS with 6.2L
http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/camaro/2010/tco.html?style=101110011
Total cost; $44,229

There's a difference of $230.00 between a Camaro and a Silverado. If you factor in the additional things a truck can do, I'd say it comes out as a more sensible purchase.


Well, there's an additional pro-truck factor at work. A truck unlike most cars has the ability to cycle from first car, to second to third, covering decades. The truck buyer has an opportunity to step off the trade in every 5 years cycle. Anytime you trade in a vehicle, you are selling wholesale and buying retail. My last truck was in the family 16 years. Dad had his truck bought new in 1970 to about 2000 (although it was rarely driven the last five years or so).

I don't fault anyone his Prius. An F-150 supposedly has more foreign content than a Toyota Tundra. I don't doubt it. A Prius is about a handy a vehicle as you would find--unless its a pickup truck.

 

[02SE]

I have to laugh at all of the MSB's (Morally Superior Beings) telling others how to live in this thread.

Everyone needs to act, purchase, and think EXACTLY like they do.

It's still a somewhat Free Country. Which means that everyone has the right to buy whatever they want and can afford.

For the record, I don't own a pick up.

 

[jrustles]

Unfortunately, big trucks (and sports cars too) attract people with weak characters and low self-esteem that want to use these vehicles as props to enable feelings of self-empowerment, popularity and control

And these people represent their respective vehicle classes terribly.

It's unfortunate for the reasonable owners of these vehicles.

 

[moving2]

jrustles- by your logic:

"Unfortunately, "boring", "average", "practical" cars attract people with questionable character and unearned high self-esteem that want to use their vehicles as props to enable feelings of moral superiority, which leads to judgment and painting large groups of people with a broad brush, all based on emotions and not fact.

And these people represent their vehicle class terribly.

It's unfortunate for the reasonable owners of these vehicles."

I think that about sums it up...

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: whip
Why are trucks and truck buyers held to a different standard than cars and car buyers? On this forum, and others, that's usually the case.
If someone buys a truck, and post about it, the comments are usually negative. Things like, "what a waste", "terrible fuel economy", "you don't need that big of a truck", and "you'll never use all of it's capability". If it's an upscale truck like a Raptor or King Ranch, the negativity usually is more.
If someone buys a sports car and post about it, the comments are usually positive. You rarely see negative comments on these threads. Fact is, a Camry will get a person to work for less money and use less fuel. Unless the driver is taking a sports car to a track, it's not being used to it's capability. Ironically, the higher the price, the more positive the comments seem.
So I'm curious, why do people view these two purchases, so differently?


I don't care what anybody drives. I'm not here to tell others what to do, what they need, or what they should drive.

The argument is absurd anyway. Large family cars were legislated out of existence due to MPG rules. People flocked to SUV's and trucks. And, I can't blame them.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Unfortunately, big trucks (and sports cars too) attract people with weak characters and low self-esteem


Really? That's absurd. I drive an S2000 sports car, not because "it's cool" or that I want to fit into the "ricer" crowd. But because it's a fun car for my daily commute. I love the convertibles! And, good people also get to enjoy the fine products available to all of us. And, bad folks drive all manner of vehicles.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Unfortunately, big trucks (and sports cars too) attract people with weak characters and low self-esteem


Really? That's absurd. I drive an S2000 sports car, not because "it's cool" or that I want to fit into the "ricer" crowd. But because it's a fun car for my daily commute. I love the convertibles! And, good people also get to enjoy the fine products available to all of us. And, bad folks drive all manner of vehicles.


Relax, the entire point was to highlight the fact that NOT EVERYONE who buys sporty cars (or trucks, or Scion xDs or VW Beetles) myself included, is like that.

But you have to admit, the S2000 as your example is the ultimate honey pot for ricer kids like an EG Civic is

Just the ricer kids with a bigger budget (mommy and daddy?).

Surely, we can't deny this or how that effect represents the vehicle poorly in spite of real, genuine auto enthusiasts such as ourselves.

Dealing with people who externalize some 'empty feeling inside' 'midlife crisis' or a desire to 'want to be' is just a fact of life, well beyond the automotive realm. People buy "big tall" vehicles to feel empowered sometimes, people rice out their cars to be cool, people even rice out their own bodies to appear edgy!

We deal with these people at work, at the grocery store, everywhere and daily. Can't let them represent the whole class poorly by generalising, and instead excersizing our ability to make distinctions. I'm a huge fan of making distinctions.

 

[strat81]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Unfortunately, hybrid cars (and electric cars too) attract people with weak characters and low self-esteem that want to use these vehicles as props to enable feelings of self-empowerment, popularity and control

And these people represent their respective vehicle classes terribly.

It's unfortunate for the reasonable owners of these vehicles.


I can play that game too.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Unfortunately, big trucks (and sports cars too) attract people with weak characters and low self-esteem that want to use these vehicles as props to enable feelings of self-empowerment, popularity and control

And these people represent their respective vehicle classes terribly.

It's unfortunate for the reasonable owners of these vehicles.


Proudly stating that fuel theft from gas stations is a victimless crime, is pretty much the definition of weak character and low morals...