When I used MaxLife in mine, I didn't notice any slamming into gear, though the transmission certainly shifted firmer/harsher. Sometimes I liked that, and sometimes I didn't. I've gone back to the OEM DW-1 fluid.
Trans Slams into D4 after fluid change w/Maxlife
- Thread starter The Critic
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I'd use Honda fluid.
For me...
Only Honda ATF in a Honda transmission
Only Honda ATF in a Honda transmission
Is it very much hasher or just firmer than you are used to? If the former, probably not the fluid. Check idle speed against spec: higher idle will make it bump into gear harder. Also check engine mounts as suggested. Also, do some research on cleaning the solenoid valve screens. I have seen your symptom listed in a troubleshooting guide and that was one of the cures. Don't know more than that.
MaxLife starts out thinner than DW-1 but hold viscosity longer, so if you compare shift firmness between old, tired Z-1 or DW-1 against new MaxLife, it's likely to change how the shifts feel (not Pto D, but actual shifts).
MaxLife starts out thinner than DW-1 but hold viscosity longer, so if you compare shift firmness between old, tired Z-1 or DW-1 against new MaxLife, it's likely to change how the shifts feel (not Pto D, but actual shifts).
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That transmission is within the dreaded failure years. That many miles, it's due to implode at any moment. Get ready to buy a new one or rebuilt one. Since you didn't use the Honda fluid, dealership may not be of any help.
Considering that the car is an 01 Accord and well out of warranty the chance of getting any stealer help was slim to none anyway, mostly the latter. Even under warranty using OEM fluid, based on history it could likely be an uphill battle.
What's interesting about the use on Honda atf discussion now, is that Z-1 was one of if not the most criticized atf discussed here over the years. Some here used Amsoil atf as an alternative. I stuck with Z-1 in an 01 Civic (check car complaints.com that year model) paid stealer list, for as long as it was available. Now Z-1 gone I've moved on to try MaxLife, working fine thus far. Can it really be worse than Z-1?
That said, no problem here if some prefer DW-1, but to say it works best in all cases, especially in Z-1 spec'd vehicles is somewhat closed minded imo.
Back to topic, based on some comments it seems engine mounts are a possibilty, though the title/timing still leave doubt.
That transmission is within the dreaded failure years. That many miles, it's due to implode at any moment. Get ready to buy a new one or rebuilt one. Since you didn't use the Honda fluid, dealership may not be of any help.
Considering that the car is an 01 Accord and well out of warranty the chance of getting any stealer help was slim to none anyway, mostly the latter. Even under warranty using OEM fluid, based on history it could likely be an uphill battle.
What's interesting about the use on Honda atf discussion now, is that Z-1 was one of if not the most criticized atf discussed here over the years. Some here used Amsoil atf as an alternative. I stuck with Z-1 in an 01 Civic (check car complaints.com that year model) paid stealer list, for as long as it was available. Now Z-1 gone I've moved on to try MaxLife, working fine thus far. Can it really be worse than Z-1?
That said, no problem here if some prefer DW-1, but to say it works best in all cases, especially in Z-1 spec'd vehicles is somewhat closed minded imo.
Back to topic, based on some comments it seems engine mounts are a possibilty, though the title/timing still leave doubt.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
That said, no problem here if some prefer DW-1, but to say it works best in all cases, especially in Z-1 spec'd vehicles is somewhat closed minded imo.
It really isn't close minded because Honda probably spent a lot of time and man hours making sure that the new DW-1 spec that replaced Z-1 wouldn't cause any issues for owners of cars that were previously run only it the old spec. No other company has done that much work and Honda auto transmissions are a different design that most others out there.
That said, no problem here if some prefer DW-1, but to say it works best in all cases, especially in Z-1 spec'd vehicles is somewhat closed minded imo.
It really isn't close minded because Honda probably spent a lot of time and man hours making sure that the new DW-1 spec that replaced Z-1 wouldn't cause any issues for owners of cars that were previously run only it the old spec. No other company has done that much work and Honda auto transmissions are a different design that most others out there.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
It really isn't close minded because Honda probably spent a lot of time and man hours making sure that the new DW-1 spec that replaced Z-1 wouldn't cause any issues for owners of cars that were previously run only it the old spec. No other company has done that much work and Honda auto transmissions are a different design that most others out there.
How much work did they do? If you know details pass it along.
It wouldn't take much to exceed Z-1, an oil that sheared down to water in a short time. DW-1 is much better, seems like, but is it that much better than the other premium options? Thus far I have seen little to demonstrate that it is, though its formulation is a bit better targeted to the Honda transmissions. Does that translate into anything tangible or useful? MaxLife is one ATF that has a long history of use with Honda owners with little to detract, at least anecdotally.
It really isn't close minded because Honda probably spent a lot of time and man hours making sure that the new DW-1 spec that replaced Z-1 wouldn't cause any issues for owners of cars that were previously run only it the old spec. No other company has done that much work and Honda auto transmissions are a different design that most others out there.
How much work did they do? If you know details pass it along.
It wouldn't take much to exceed Z-1, an oil that sheared down to water in a short time. DW-1 is much better, seems like, but is it that much better than the other premium options? Thus far I have seen little to demonstrate that it is, though its formulation is a bit better targeted to the Honda transmissions. Does that translate into anything tangible or useful? MaxLife is one ATF that has a long history of use with Honda owners with little to detract, at least anecdotally.
Z-1 spiderwebs into brown / strawberry muck very fast. There was something amiss with Z-1.
Cold shifts on Z-1 were horrible.
DW-1 is very robust, great cold shifts and smooth gear engagement.
You can't miss with this fluid in a Honda trans.
If it didn't help, no other transmission fluid would have made a difference in any case.
Cold shifts on Z-1 were horrible.
DW-1 is very robust, great cold shifts and smooth gear engagement.
You can't miss with this fluid in a Honda trans.
If it didn't help, no other transmission fluid would have made a difference in any case.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Back to topic, based on some comments it seems engine mounts are a possibilty, though the title/timing still leave doubt.
Exactly. It seems very odd that the mounts would go back within miles of the fluid change. I am inclined to believe that the abnormal transmission behavior is related to the fluid used, in some way.
I've ordered 6 qt of DW-1 and will do another drain and refill with DW-1 next weekend and update.
Back to topic, based on some comments it seems engine mounts are a possibilty, though the title/timing still leave doubt.
Exactly. It seems very odd that the mounts would go back within miles of the fluid change. I am inclined to believe that the abnormal transmission behavior is related to the fluid used, in some way.
I've ordered 6 qt of DW-1 and will do another drain and refill with DW-1 next weekend and update.
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Z-1 spiderwebs into brown / strawberry muck very fast. There was something amiss with Z-1.
Cold shifts on Z-1 were horrible.....
And yet in my personal experience, a notorius 01 Civic seeing only Z-1, with minimal d&f flci's (25-30k) still made it to 167k before a switch to MaxLife, now 27k on it. Not living in extremely cold weather never noticed out of the ordinary shifts.
And the OP's V6 now with 132k made the greatest majority if not all those miles presumably on Z-1. Whatever it was though, it wasn't DW-1. And now we are to believe Honda newest atf is infinitely better than any other atf for Hondas and just ignore that Z-1, used and promoted as something special (always use Honda atf) for many many years, was supposedly low quality. Something ironic in that conclusion, imo.
Z-1 spiderwebs into brown / strawberry muck very fast. There was something amiss with Z-1.
Cold shifts on Z-1 were horrible.....
And yet in my personal experience, a notorius 01 Civic seeing only Z-1, with minimal d&f flci's (25-30k) still made it to 167k before a switch to MaxLife, now 27k on it. Not living in extremely cold weather never noticed out of the ordinary shifts.
And the OP's V6 now with 132k made the greatest majority if not all those miles presumably on Z-1. Whatever it was though, it wasn't DW-1. And now we are to believe Honda newest atf is infinitely better than any other atf for Hondas and just ignore that Z-1, used and promoted as something special (always use Honda atf) for many many years, was supposedly low quality. Something ironic in that conclusion, imo.
I personally don't believe DW-1 is a miracle fluid, and maybe only marginally better than Z1. That said, I've used the three aftermarket "majors" here (Val. ML, Val. IMV, Castrol IMV) and feel that the friction properties of the Honda fluid is best-matched to the transmission (as it likely should be). Objectively, I'd go along with an argument that any of the three "majors" listed above is a more "robust" fluid, likely with better basestocks, etc. But I still prefer the Honda fluid due to how my transmissions shift on the aftermarket fluid. It's not dramatically different, but I notice that stuff.
Because the DW-1 fluid is not terribly "robust" in my opinion, I simply change it more often (every 15k miles). My per-mile cost on DW-1 is far greater than it would be on MaxLife, but I like the way the transmission shifts on DW-1 compared with the aftermarket fluids, and like it enough to pay the premium. Others choose differently and that's okay too.
In support of Z1, I will say that our Acura was on the factory fill Z1 up through about 75k miles, which is the first time the ATF had ever been changed. Shifting was getting wonky, and it now shifts better than when we bought the car (at 58k miles). It's now closing in on 100k miles, and the transmission's doing great.
Because the DW-1 fluid is not terribly "robust" in my opinion, I simply change it more often (every 15k miles). My per-mile cost on DW-1 is far greater than it would be on MaxLife, but I like the way the transmission shifts on DW-1 compared with the aftermarket fluids, and like it enough to pay the premium. Others choose differently and that's okay too.
In support of Z1, I will say that our Acura was on the factory fill Z1 up through about 75k miles, which is the first time the ATF had ever been changed. Shifting was getting wonky, and it now shifts better than when we bought the car (at 58k miles). It's now closing in on 100k miles, and the transmission's doing great.
I'm still running out the last of my Z-1 stash in our Honda Accord, so I can't comment anecdotally on anything else. I am soon faced with "that" choice. I have long been leaning towards MaxLife but since I have a little time before the final decision, my mind remains open.
A hard shift to drive does not fit any symptoms I know about that relate directly to the oil. I was factory trained to work on two brands of automatics back when I wrenched for a living and I have consulted the manuals for our Honda. I have a better-than-average understanding of how automatics work... even the Honda styles... so I would welcome a technical explanation of how the oil would effect the shift from P to D4. To say "it's the oil" without any other checking is not a logical troubleshooting methodology, certainly not one a professional would take. I can't say for sure it's not the oil but I can say most of this discussion falls into the WAG category. Even if they are correct, WAG don't count for rep-points in my book.
A hard shift to drive does not fit any symptoms I know about that relate directly to the oil. I was factory trained to work on two brands of automatics back when I wrenched for a living and I have consulted the manuals for our Honda. I have a better-than-average understanding of how automatics work... even the Honda styles... so I would welcome a technical explanation of how the oil would effect the shift from P to D4. To say "it's the oil" without any other checking is not a logical troubleshooting methodology, certainly not one a professional would take. I can't say for sure it's not the oil but I can say most of this discussion falls into the WAG category. Even if they are correct, WAG don't count for rep-points in my book.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
I'm still running out the last of my Z-1 stash in our Honda Accord, so I can't comment anecdotally on anything else. I am soon faced with "that" choice. I have long been leaning towards MaxLife but since I have a little time before the final decision, my mind remains open.
A hard shift to drive does not fit any symptoms I know about that relate directly to the oil. I was factory trained to work on two brands of automatics back when I wrenched for a living and I have consulted the manuals for our Honda. I have a better-than-average understanding of how automatics work... even the Honda styles... so I would welcome a technical explanation of how the oil would effect the shift from P to D4. To say "it's the oil" without any other checking is not a logical troubleshooting methodology, certainly not one a professional would take. I can't say for sure it's not the oil but I can say most of this discussion falls into the WAG category. Even if they are correct, WAG don't count for rep-points in my book.
Although I agree that it seems quite unlikely for the fluid to be the sole cause of the problem, my thought was to get a baseline before proceeding with troubleshooting. I did read your previous post and have noted the information; I will check the idle speed and the mounts, followed by the solenoids. If there's any additional info that you can share or suggest for troubleshooting, please let me know - I'm listening. Thanks.
I'm still running out the last of my Z-1 stash in our Honda Accord, so I can't comment anecdotally on anything else. I am soon faced with "that" choice. I have long been leaning towards MaxLife but since I have a little time before the final decision, my mind remains open.
A hard shift to drive does not fit any symptoms I know about that relate directly to the oil. I was factory trained to work on two brands of automatics back when I wrenched for a living and I have consulted the manuals for our Honda. I have a better-than-average understanding of how automatics work... even the Honda styles... so I would welcome a technical explanation of how the oil would effect the shift from P to D4. To say "it's the oil" without any other checking is not a logical troubleshooting methodology, certainly not one a professional would take. I can't say for sure it's not the oil but I can say most of this discussion falls into the WAG category. Even if they are correct, WAG don't count for rep-points in my book.
Although I agree that it seems quite unlikely for the fluid to be the sole cause of the problem, my thought was to get a baseline before proceeding with troubleshooting. I did read your previous post and have noted the information; I will check the idle speed and the mounts, followed by the solenoids. If there's any additional info that you can share or suggest for troubleshooting, please let me know - I'm listening. Thanks.
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Keep us up to date on how the DW-1 works out after your bad drain and fill with the Maxlife!
Critic, it was Honda engineers that scrapped Z-1 and replaced it with DW-1.
Why? I'm not sure.
But when I dumped it after only about 5,000km for my first drain and fill, it was soupy. The end of the long funnel touched the bottom of the trans case and it had a muddy look to it.
DW-1 cured my cold shifts. Just one D&F.
When I cleaned the wear-in metallic mud off the magnetic drain bolt, I made sure it was spotless.
On my second D&F, I checked the drain bolt and it had very little metallic mud on it.
So, at least I know DW-1 doesn't make any odd wear for one D&F.
When I go for my third D&F, if the magnet has little wear particles on it, I'll know DW-1 has it's anti-wear in line with what I'd expect from a good ATF.
Why? I'm not sure.
But when I dumped it after only about 5,000km for my first drain and fill, it was soupy. The end of the long funnel touched the bottom of the trans case and it had a muddy look to it.
DW-1 cured my cold shifts. Just one D&F.
When I cleaned the wear-in metallic mud off the magnetic drain bolt, I made sure it was spotless.
On my second D&F, I checked the drain bolt and it had very little metallic mud on it.
So, at least I know DW-1 doesn't make any odd wear for one D&F.
When I go for my third D&F, if the magnet has little wear particles on it, I'll know DW-1 has it's anti-wear in line with what I'd expect from a good ATF.
One thing we can agree on is that no tears were shed at the Z-1 demise. Dw-1 is better in every objective sense. Whether it's worth the cost vs alternate and more readily available choices has not been proven in my book. I think we can safely agree that it's a good and safe choice, however.
Critic: I guess the first thing to gauge is how severe is this problem. Is it, "Yeah, it just bumps into gear a little harder than I prefer." or is it, "Dang, I'm headed to the chiropractor!" Obviously, the latter scenario requires a more urgent response. I also think that it would be wise to clarify for the group which end of the spectrum your car falls into. That it bumps a little harder into gear than you prefer, and assuming is is the oil, that does not mean MaxLife is "bad," or unsuitable for Hondas, or that it's harmful to your transmission, it just means it bumps into gear a little harder than your preference.
I am certainly no expert on Honda automatic transmissions but I approach my lack of specific product knowledge in the same methodical ways I approached unfamiliar problems in those 20 years I wrenched. Step One: Crack the manual! Does anyone think that a dealer or independent tech only works on cars or problems which which he is intimately familiar? That is far from being the case. New stuff was almost a daily occurrence in my experience and you relied on your basic experience and training bolstered by the manuals, TSBs and even advice from more experienced techs in the shop. We all know that techs are people and can be good or bad. The desire to make money sometimes shortcuts the process in a negative way for the customer but often an inexperienced but methodical tech can produce a better end result than a more experienced tech heck-bent on increasing his flat rate hours with "educated guesses" (or even WAG!)
Unless the problem is severe and indicative of bad stuff happening fast, I would approach the problem one thing at a time. To me that means not wasting a load of good oil until that was indicated by having eliminated everything else.
Critic: I guess the first thing to gauge is how severe is this problem. Is it, "Yeah, it just bumps into gear a little harder than I prefer." or is it, "Dang, I'm headed to the chiropractor!" Obviously, the latter scenario requires a more urgent response. I also think that it would be wise to clarify for the group which end of the spectrum your car falls into. That it bumps a little harder into gear than you prefer, and assuming is is the oil, that does not mean MaxLife is "bad," or unsuitable for Hondas, or that it's harmful to your transmission, it just means it bumps into gear a little harder than your preference.
I am certainly no expert on Honda automatic transmissions but I approach my lack of specific product knowledge in the same methodical ways I approached unfamiliar problems in those 20 years I wrenched. Step One: Crack the manual! Does anyone think that a dealer or independent tech only works on cars or problems which which he is intimately familiar? That is far from being the case. New stuff was almost a daily occurrence in my experience and you relied on your basic experience and training bolstered by the manuals, TSBs and even advice from more experienced techs in the shop. We all know that techs are people and can be good or bad. The desire to make money sometimes shortcuts the process in a negative way for the customer but often an inexperienced but methodical tech can produce a better end result than a more experienced tech heck-bent on increasing his flat rate hours with "educated guesses" (or even WAG!)
Unless the problem is severe and indicative of bad stuff happening fast, I would approach the problem one thing at a time. To me that means not wasting a load of good oil until that was indicated by having eliminated everything else.
The bottom line is that the OP stated that the trans ONLY started to slam into D4 AFTER the drain and fill with MaxLife.
Surely that is MORE than a coincidence?
Surely that is MORE than a coincidence?
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Honda probably spent a lot of time and man hours making sure that the new DW-1 spec that replaced Z-1 wouldn't cause any issues for owners of cars that were previously run only it the old spec.
Honda, in the era of the op's car, did not spend enough effort in developing transmissions that would not grenade even using only Honda brand fluid.
Flash point for Z-1 and DW-1 are the same. Viscosity of DW-1 lower than Z-1 so it could cause lock up torque converter to drag when line pressure was low due to leaking at the valve that controls lockup TC pressure.
2001 models tend to have transmission bearings get loose and fail. Also, these models often crud up the internal screen, which is similar to a conventional USA brand car AT filter. The crud is worn clutch particles. Filter clogs. Fluid pressures are incorrect. Banging, delayed shifts, rough shifts, no shifts and similer issues happen. There are external screens which can be cleaned or replaced but the internal one can not be serviced without removing and splitting the trans case apart.
Yes, bad engine mounts can cause banging. Front, passenger side, rear, transmission mounts all often go bad.
Honda probably spent a lot of time and man hours making sure that the new DW-1 spec that replaced Z-1 wouldn't cause any issues for owners of cars that were previously run only it the old spec.
Honda, in the era of the op's car, did not spend enough effort in developing transmissions that would not grenade even using only Honda brand fluid.
Flash point for Z-1 and DW-1 are the same. Viscosity of DW-1 lower than Z-1 so it could cause lock up torque converter to drag when line pressure was low due to leaking at the valve that controls lockup TC pressure.
2001 models tend to have transmission bearings get loose and fail. Also, these models often crud up the internal screen, which is similar to a conventional USA brand car AT filter. The crud is worn clutch particles. Filter clogs. Fluid pressures are incorrect. Banging, delayed shifts, rough shifts, no shifts and similer issues happen. There are external screens which can be cleaned or replaced but the internal one can not be serviced without removing and splitting the trans case apart.
Yes, bad engine mounts can cause banging. Front, passenger side, rear, transmission mounts all often go bad.
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I guess to try to diagnose this more, I would ask Critic some questions to which he may not have the answer at this point, but they're probably worth asking just to get some discussion going.
The transmission shifts into "Drive" more firm than it previously did. Presumably, this is a shift into First gear from any other gear, but possibly only from Park or Neutral.
1) Does it shift firm into Drive when moved from Park?
2) Does it shift firm into Drive when moved from Neutral?
3) Does it shift firm into First when moved from 2 to 1?
If it slams into gear under each of the three conditions above, then it may indicate an issue specific to First gear. If it only slams into gear from Park or Neutral, and not already in a forward gear, then it may indicate a different issue.
4) Does it shift firm into Second when moved from P or N to 2?
If the answer to each of the four questions above is Yes, then I would suspect something in the power flow of the transmission, and possibly how fluid pressure is built within the transmission.
Something else to consider is this: these transmissions are adaptive and the operation may smooth out over time. I have certainly noticed this with the various aftermarket fluids I have used in ours. MaxLife would initially shift pretty firm (all gear shifting, not just from a neutral range to a drive range), but over time, it would smooth out. I don't know if that was a physical modification of the fluid or if it was software adjustments made by the PCM.
The transmission shifts into "Drive" more firm than it previously did. Presumably, this is a shift into First gear from any other gear, but possibly only from Park or Neutral.
1) Does it shift firm into Drive when moved from Park?
2) Does it shift firm into Drive when moved from Neutral?
3) Does it shift firm into First when moved from 2 to 1?
If it slams into gear under each of the three conditions above, then it may indicate an issue specific to First gear. If it only slams into gear from Park or Neutral, and not already in a forward gear, then it may indicate a different issue.
4) Does it shift firm into Second when moved from P or N to 2?
If the answer to each of the four questions above is Yes, then I would suspect something in the power flow of the transmission, and possibly how fluid pressure is built within the transmission.
Something else to consider is this: these transmissions are adaptive and the operation may smooth out over time. I have certainly noticed this with the various aftermarket fluids I have used in ours. MaxLife would initially shift pretty firm (all gear shifting, not just from a neutral range to a drive range), but over time, it would smooth out. I don't know if that was a physical modification of the fluid or if it was software adjustments made by the PCM.
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