Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor

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Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
Originally Posted By: PRND3L
OTOH, I'm willing to bet ALL of us have at one time or another experienced a computer malfunction.

A computer malfunction as in the "car computer"? Not me, the closest thing to that was an ignition module in an mid 80's ford tempo.


No, I meant more generally, as in any computer. Computers are computers IMO, whether in a car on on a desktop, and are prone to crash, hang, etc. for who-knows-what or no reason.

I've experienced car computer malfunctions too, just not as many as the desktop variety.
 
Originally Posted By: PRND3L

No, I meant more generally, as in any computer. Computers are computers IMO, whether in a car on on a desktop, and are prone to crash, hang, etc. for who-knows-what or no reason.

I've experienced car computer malfunctions too, just not as many as the desktop variety.


I'm sure we've all experienced mechanical system malfunctions before. Mechanical systems are mechanical systems, IMO, and are prone to rusting, fatigue, physically breaking, etc. for who-knows-what or no reason.


That argument is a real stretch. There are plenty of reliable computer controlled systems out there.
 
I leased a Q45 once that had a bad wiring harness. I was driving on the Ohio Turnpike in the Winter late at night and hit the rear window defroster button. The power mirrors both moved downward, radio antenna went down, right rear window rolled down and then the fuse panel started smoking and most of the fuses blew. I ended up driving more than 50 miles with the window down in 20F temps. I was lucky that the lights still worked. They ended up having to replace all the chips in the car and the entire wiring harness. I had a loaner car for over 30 days. Fortunately, it had a 4year 60k bumper to bumper warranty.
 
After reading all the reponses, i'm really believing that it's a software glitch. The possibility that a software glitch kicked in to me is very probable, however this issue probably isn't affected on all cars, I"m willing to say that the possibility of a handful of car computers could be affected, maybe not a software issue as much as a hardware issue. some cars get bumped and bruised on the roads more than others, it could be affected by simply: luck of the draw.

As for the police officer not reacting like he should have, if you think about it, his training was either in a crown vic, caprice or charger, all with keys, plus the familiarity of the cop car he drives to me superceds that of the camry he drove.

Also, as far as domestic automakers hiding and throwing blame on their issues, I have to say the import mfgrs are experts at keeping things hidden away, and I blame the news media for that.
In this case there was no way toyota could hide from this. But blaming floormats sounds like and excuse for what the issue really and probably is, and I'm sure they have a good idea what it is, but they're having problems reduplicating it consistantly.
it's like the domestic car makers are held to a higher standard from the media standpoint.
the Ford issue with the Firestone tires seemed to be a fiasco of finger pointing.
IMO, at the time when the Explorer was super popular, and people were scooping them up, most people had never driven an SUV, and the explorer was sitting on a pickup truck chassis, with a higher center of gravity than that of a passenger car.
I put a lot of blame on people not really paying attention to how an SUV drives vs. a car, or treating it like a car, as well as not maintaining the correct tire pressure.
And yeah, the firestone tires were defective, but not all of them.
If the Explorer was so bad, why was it just Firestone that took on the recall, of not just the Wilderness, but also ATX and a couple other models. So (Thank you firestone for my free set of tires that were on my Ranger pickup!) to me, Firestone knew something was going on and tried to hide it. Of all the explorers sold, only a very small handful had this issue. So... you can't really throw blame on the vehicle, but the driver.

The push button switch is a nifty idea, but in an emergency, 3 seconds is like someone wrote 2.5 seconds to long. a lot can happen in 3 seconds. I'd like to actually see an on/off push button instead. putting a engine kill isn't a bad idea, but cutting the fuel pump, in a real emergency can get things worse. I think of having a circuit that cuts power to the pump to like 8-9volts and has the engine running rough, but still running so you still have steering and hopefully brakes! if someone panics, which is to be expected, and they floor the gas, nothing will really happen, and that extra second or so might get you to realize.. wrong pedal!
speaking of pedals.. floor hinged pedals would be very hard to jam downards, dunno why they got away from it, BMW, Mercedes all have floor hinged pedals, and I know lots of women who drive these cars and have never complained of anything when they wear tall shoes. I think it was more design change than anything. i think it's easier to go WOT with a floor hinged pedal anyway.
 
Wait, so you blame Toyota for this accident when the driver could've easily shifted into neutral, then you blame average Joe for not doing a simple pressure check for something Ford covered up?
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I agree with many points EricF made. When people went and bought those Explorers sitting on a pickup chassis, people should have been aware of the inherent risks of driving pickup trucks that are more prone to roll overs and basically much more dangerous in single car accidents.

Then there was a neglect to keep tire pressure within the specs.

I'm not saying that tires were flawless or that the Ford did not downplayed the rollover risks though.

Similarly for Toyota there are 2 issues: the car defect (whether the problem is with the gas pedal/floor interface, ETC/cruise system hardware, or software) combined with driver errors.

Now, we know that the average US driver is not the brightest bulb, so if the car defects are not fixed, we will see some more of the issue coming back.

In the days of Audi, the park interlock system stopped the problems.
 
Originally Posted By: ProStreetCamaro
Wow I will go ahead and say it. We have some gullible people here if you think electronic throttle is a better system. In my eyes it has zero benefits to it. I for one hate a laggy gas pedal. I hate when they over complicate something that should be so simple. The more you complicate things the more problems you run into. Especially when it comes to electronic stuff. And it is biting toyota right where it hurts right now and has killed people. Yup gotta love electronic throttle control. Give me a throttle cable any day of the week. You can not flaw a throttle cable. It wither works or it doesnt and it has worked for how many years now?


BINGO!

Well stated Pro!


As a reminder, the bottom line is that the DRIVER failed to use his common sense to shift the transmission into NEUTRAL so he could come to a safe stop. CASE CLOSED.

DRIVER FATAL ERROR!

I definitely could careless about the dummy inspired electronic stability control, or ABS for that matter...If you have reasonable driving skills YOU and your human grey matter will do a better job of controlling the vehicle in an emergency situation. We need to get the dummies off the road with stricter licensing tests.
 
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Originally Posted By: Vizzy


DRIVER FATAL ERROR!

I definitely could careless about the dummy inspired electronic stability control, or ABS for that matter...If you have reasonable driving skills YOU and your human grey matter will do a better job of controlling the vehicle in an emergency situation. We need to get the dummies off the road with stricter licensing tests.


I wonder if you would say the same thing it that happened to your grandma, mother, or girlfriend? I assume you don't have teenage children yet, right?
 
Originally Posted By: ProStreetCamaro
Wow I will go ahead and say it. We have some gullible people here if you think electronic throttle is a better system. In my eyes it has zero benefits to it. I for one hate a laggy gas pedal. I hate when they over complicate something that should be so simple. The more you complicate things the more problems you run into. Especially when it comes to electronic stuff. And it is biting toyota right where it hurts right now and has killed people. Yup gotta love electronic throttle control. Give me a throttle cable any day of the week. You can not flaw a throttle cable. It wither works or it doesnt and it has worked for how many years now?


With that way of thinking we would be still driving horse carriages, can't get simpler than that, and yet here we are discussing automobiles.

Whether you like it or not, the progress will continue, and ETC is progress, just like fuel injection, electronic engine management, airbags etc.
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
ProStreetCamaro said:
Whether you like it or not, the progress will continue, and ETC is progress, just like fuel injection, electronic engine management, airbags etc.


I'm not indicating that there should be NO progress with electronic controls, HOWEVER that progress needs to be tempered with a dose of rational and reasonable consideration.

Simply put some of these items are not perfected to the degree that is necessary in severe duty (autos) situations. Electronics especially complex CPU driven items are very vunerable to failures and glitches and I constantly find that folks are complaining most about such related devices, not to mention that the COST of repairs out of warranty is OUTRAGEOUS to say the least!!!!

Progress is fine, when it can REALLY be considered "progress" by the everyday consumer. Obviously the consumers don't like the fraility or expense of the progress you define.
 
Electronic control has been around a lot longer than we think. Everytime you step into a commercial airline's jumbo jet, do you really think the throttle, flaps etc are hard linked to the pilot's controls? They are all fly-by-wire. Planes are not falling out of the sky like flies, considering how many flights take off and land daily around the world.

The electronics in cars are relatively robust, with redundancies on critical systems like electronic throttles. Dual potentiometers on the accelerator, spring return for the throttle blade etc. A stuck wide open electronic throttle, will be bordering on a mechanical problem rather than dodgy electronics. This can happen even to a mechanical cable throttle.

It is through mass production that systems get refined and improved. Without putting systems out into real life service, there is limited refinement that can be done in the lab or design center.
 
Originally Posted By: chrome
ECT is important in the implementation of vehicle stability systems. Even something as simple as Traction Control works far better with ECT, rather than trying to cut power by ignition retard or fuel cut. A full vehicle stability system needs ECT.

ECT helps make auto trans shift smoother, by pulling back power slightly during upshifts, especially at WOT. Some DSG systems will even blip the throttle during downshifts.

ECT allows for non-linear throttle control for different speeds. In come cars with powerful engines, the throttle response is intentionally softened at slower speeds to stop the car being "too jumpy" when trying to park, for example.

ECT plays a role in fuel economy. It has been shown that a wider throttle at a high gear during cruising reduces pumping losses in the engine, which helps mpg.

A throttle cable is not fail-proof either. There has been cases when the cable frayed enough to cause a sticking throttle. A rusty cable has similar effects.


Don't leave out that ECT gives the car enough rope to hang me with.

My Lexus IS350 is a pain to drive in the snow. Its a RWD compact sedan, with 306 HP. In the snow it will the traction control comes on constantly. That would be nice, helpful even, except that it cuts engine power for a couple seconds EVERY TIME.

So instead of having a little bit of wheel spin that I can manage, the car basically stalls for a couple seconds right when I am pulling out into traffic.

If I had a real throttle cable, I could push the pedal, and it would have to give enough fuel to not lean out and die. Since the car controls the fuel and the air, I can do nothing but hope it listens to me and starts accelerating again before I get hit.
 
Originally Posted By: chrome
Electronic control has been around a lot longer than we think. Everytime you step into a commercial airline's jumbo jet, do you really think the throttle, flaps etc are hard linked to the pilot's controls? They are all fly-by-wire. Planes are not falling out of the sky like flies, considering how many flights take off and land daily around the world.



You really can't compare airplanes and jets to cars in most cases because oftem times they have double, triple, or even times quadruple redundancies as required by FAA law.

Even so we have seen some horrific accidents of late with the very complicated avionics in various Airbuses, the scary thing is that it seems that investigators can't seem to pinpoint some of the problems due to the complexity of fly by wire in these planes...

Quote:

It is through mass production that systems get refined and improved. Without putting systems out into real life service, there is limited refinement that can be done in the lab or design center.


Maybe so, but I personally don't want to be the PAYING guinea pig for a large for profit corporation. I'm sure most others that fork out many tens of thousands don't want to be either.

The fact that you state what you have belies the arrogance of larger organizations today.
 
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Originally Posted By: ksJoe
Don't leave out that ECT gives the car enough rope to hang me with.

My Lexus IS350 is a pain to drive in the snow. Its a RWD compact sedan, with 306 HP. In the snow it will the traction control comes on constantly. That would be nice, helpful even, except that it cuts engine power for a couple seconds EVERY TIME.

So instead of having a little bit of wheel spin that I can manage, the car basically stalls for a couple seconds right when I am pulling out into traffic.

If I had a real throttle cable, I could push the pedal, and it would have to give enough fuel to not lean out and die. Since the car controls the fuel and the air, I can do nothing but hope it listens to me and starts accelerating again before I get hit.


Do you have winter tyres on the car?
 
Originally Posted By: chrome
Do you have winter tyres on the car?


I wondered someone would ask that :)

No, they are all season tires. Winter tires would help, but we don't get much snow around here. My point is the ECT enables the traction control to react very aggressively.

It does the same thing in the rain (though less frequently).

Regardless of the type of tire, whether its rain or snow, when the traction control kicks in, it often makes the situation less safe.
 
Originally Posted By: ksJoe


Regardless of the type of tire, whether its rain or snow, when the traction control kicks in, it often makes the situation less safe.


You'll often find that this is the reaction of a fairly skilled driver when faced with having computers coming into the equation during a emergency or hazardous situation while driving.

The bottom line is that a skilled human mind will be better able to control a car in a dangerous than the computer will.

The industry must allow drivers to opt out of using the "aids" if they wish!
 
Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Maybe so, but I personally don't want to be the PAYING guinea pig for a large for profit corporation. I'm sure most others that fork out many tens of thousands don't want to be either.

The fact that you state what you have belies the arrogance of larger organizations today.


I do not think what I stated belies the arrogance of large organizations in any way. That is a rather unfair statement Vizzy?

The simple fact is, if you don't have mass production and the associated refinement process of putting such systems into service, then we will all likely be paying ridiculous prices for cars. The engineers design a system, they build prototypes and they test it as best as they can. But realistically the level of in-house testing that can be performed will never be able to iron out every single bug in a particular system.

When fuel injection first came into mass production engines, there was a period of time for refinement before they got it just right. The same case with turbocharging, supercharging, electronic ignition etc. These technologies which we currently enjoy in a modern car did not become perfect overnight.
 
Originally Posted By: chrome
[When fuel injection first came into mass production engines, there was a period of time for refinement before they got it just right. The same case with turbocharging, supercharging, electronic ignition etc. These technologies which we currently enjoy in a modern car did not become perfect overnight.


But chrome...fuel injection was VERY gradually introduced to the auto industry so that you had plenty of choices when it came time to buy..and IF you wanted to take the chance of being a "early adopter" of such a technology you could, if not you didn't have to pay for having added reliability problems..

With the onslaught of ABS, ECT, ect...the industry has really forced the general motoring public to simply "take it" and live with it...it has been a very rapid transition from none of these unnecessary (for competent drivers) electronic aids to practically ALL vehicles sold today have them.

I'm not buying that method at all. Whenever I can buy a vehicle that meets my needs without the "computerized driving aids" I will definitely choose it over the "bells and whistles" competition.

And unlike many potential buyers today I can actually afford to pay in full for my new ride!
 
Originally Posted By: ProStreetCamaro
You can not flaw a throttle cable.


Unless the throttle cable return spring breaks....then you have a runaway WOT situation and have to shut down the engine or put it in neutral.
 
Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Electronics especially complex CPU driven items are very vunerable to failures and glitches


Many of those are software related problems. The Therac-25 is, perhaps, the best example of that.
 
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