Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor

[KrisZ]

I think the PCM programming should be improved. The current one looks like this (seriously exagerated):

Start/Stop Button: Someone is pressing me repeatedly, I better tell PCM.

Start/Stop Button to PCM: Hey PCM, I'm being pressed over and over, what should I do?

PCM: What.. What... I'm awake, Oh, it's you Start/Stop Button, what do you want? (What a pain in the neck he is)

Start/Stop Button: The driver is pressing me over and over, what should I do?

PCM: I see, let me run this through a check list, hang on.

PCM going through the checklist: OK, Lets see...
1. Is the car stopped or moving? OK, lets look at the speed... 120MPH!! (Nice). So we're moving, check.
2. What is the gas pedal position? Lets see... WOT (Sweet, someone is having fun).
3. Was the Start/Stop Button pushed for more that 3 sec? Lets ask the Start/Stop Button.

PCM to Start/Stop Button: Hey, it's PCS, were you pressed for more than 3sec. at any point in time?

Start/Stop Button: That's a negative.

PCM (analyzing the checlist): All right so lets see what we have here.
1. 120MPH... in motion, check.
2. WOT, check.
3. Start/stop Button not pressed for more than 3sec, check.

PCM to Start/Stop Button: Ok, I went through the checklist and it looks like the guy is on a race track having some fun and messing with you. Recommendation: DO NOTHING, I REAPEAT, DO NOTHING, we don't want to spoil this guy's fun.


So there is clearly room for improvement.

 

[MGregoir]

I would like to see a dash mounted kill switch in all vehicles, to be honest.

Not because of this partiicular recall, mind you, but a switch that would shut off the engine without locking the column would be beneficial in innumerable mechanical panic situations.

Flip the switch to Emergency Shutdown, the engine goes off. Flip it back to the Operate position and the fuel pump and ignition system would switch back on if you were in park or neutral.

It should be put in a standard position on all vehicles, between the driver's door and steering wheel, and clearly visible from the window so in case of emergency someone can open the door and hit the kill switch (for example if an inertia switch does not work after an accident).

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Notice above GM person doesn't flame Toyota...now if it was a GM PT1 and his croonies would be all over it!

+1

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: MGregoir
I would like to see a dash mounted kill switch in all vehicles, to be honest.

Not because of this partiicular recall, mind you, but a switch that would shut off the engine without locking the column would be beneficial in innumerable mechanical panic situations.

Flip the switch to Emergency Shutdown, the engine goes off. Flip it back to the Operate position and the fuel pump and ignition system would switch back on if you were in park or neutral.

It should be put in a standard position on all vehicles, between the driver's door and steering wheel, and clearly visible from the window so in case of emergency someone can open the door and hit the kill switch (for example if an inertia switch does not work after an accident).


I agree.

It would have to be something that kills the entire electrical system like we use on the race cars. It shuts down electrical power to the vehicle through a real switch. I wouldn't trust a "switch" that sent a signal to the computer to shut it down. We need something that physically disconnects power to the car.

And a question mentioned a few times needs to be answered. Does shifting into neutral tell the computer to command a solenoid to disengage the transmission or does it directly physically disconnect the coupling?

Also, has anyone tried putting a Toyota vehicle in neutral at high speeds? I'm wondering if it doesn't have some physical lockout "feature".

 

[Vizzy]

While there might be initial panic from the typical driver there is NO reasonable explanation for Saylor not shifting the car into neutral, or even using the parking brake. It is very odd because I'm sure that the officer is TRAINED to deal with intense situations while driving.

I also find it ludicrious and disturbing that a typical Lexus customer with all their education and sophistication would not "know what "Neutral" is for. Outrageous. Are Lexus drivers stupid?!?!?! I have never seen a vehicle that would lock out Neutral, due exactly to the potential of it being used as a safety feature in just such an emergency as is mentioned.

Of course the deaths and injuries are tragic and I feel for the families, but seriously if you don't have enough sense to get to know the vehicle you are driving then you have no business being on the road.

 

[javacontour]

This was part of my drivers training. This isn't a new problem. When cars had actual throttle cables, they were known to stick from time to time. We were taught to put the car in neutral and brake to a stop. It was better to blow an engine than end up dead.

This isn't a technology issue, as throttles stuck wide open is not new to drive by wire. It's a drivers training issue.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: prax
Quote:
Drivers in other crashes also found it difficult to rein in a runaway Toyota. Guadalupe Gomez of Redwood City said he was held hostage for 20 miles on a Bay Area freeway by a 2007Camry traveling more than 100 mph.

Gomez was unable to turn off the engine or shift into neutral and then burned out his brakes before slamming into another car and killing that driver, said attorney Louis Franecke, who represented that victim's family.


20 miles???

Maybe you would freeze and do nothing for the first couple of miles, but 20 miles???


Yeah, this one's not really passing my smell test. Something is not being told (or fictional things ARE being told...). I suppose you could dilly-dally with the brakes if the engine was in runaway condition, burning them up, but that could happen in any car. I have a hard time believing that if you mashed the brakes to the floor, even if you fail to select Neutral, you could not force the car to a stop (albeit an ungraceful one...).

Reminds me too of the 1980s Audi problem. IIRC, the joke was, "What does AUDI stand for?" Answer: Acceleration Under Demonic Influence. Only a matter of time before the jokes start from this story.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Notice above GM person doesn't flame Toyota...now if it was a GM PT1 and his croonies would be all over it!

Notice the CEO from Toyota publically apologized to the family.If it were a GM they would deny it and hide behind some lawyers skirt. The Ford Firestone issue killed almost 800 people before they even admitted it was an issue. Remember how Ralph Nader got his start?

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Notice above GM person doesn't flame Toyota...now if it was a GM PT1 and his croonies would be all over it!

+1


Doesn't take Albert Einstein to figure out where you work....

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN


It would have to be something that kills the entire electrical system like we use on the race cars. It shuts down electrical power to the vehicle through a real switch. I wouldn't trust a "switch" that sent a signal to the computer to shut it down. We need something that physically disconnects power to the car.

And a question mentioned a few times needs to be answered. Does shifting into neutral tell the computer to command a solenoid to disengage the transmission or does it directly physically disconnect the coupling?

Also, has anyone tried putting a Toyota vehicle in neutral at high speeds? I'm wondering if it doesn't have some physical lockout "feature".


I did on my 08 ES50 this weekend. It goes right into neutral and the revs climb. I didn't let it redline but I am sure it would if the throttle was stuck at WOT. The start/stop button does have an emergency function (push & hold for 3 seconds) and mine works as tested. BUT...I didn't know about until reading about this accident. The Lexus dealer never went over that feature with us. So, a guy who may have had a keyed ignition and got a push button loaner would never know that feature existed.

Kind of reminds me of JFK Jr. not knowing that if had switched on his auto pilot it could have flown him straight to the runway apron at the airfield on Marthas Vineyard.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Notice above GM person doesn't flame Toyota...now if it was a GM PT1 and his croonies would be all over it!

Notice the CEO from Toyota publically apologized to the family.If it were a GM they would deny it and hide behind some lawyers skirt. The Ford Firestone issue killed almost 800 people before they even admitted it was an issue. Remember how Ralph Nader got his start?


You always have to try and turn it around don't you? Can't take the criticism to the fact that you are first to fan the flames, or even light the fire about something nasty in a domestic thread, but here we are in thread about possessed Toyota's and you are COMMENDING them for APOLOGIZING because the vehicle killed four people due to an issue that appears to have potentially killed MANY more, and nobody REALLY knows what the cause is?

They screwed up. That kind of stuff happens.

Nobody is flaming Toyota.

But you've got the big pair swinging between your legs to drag up Ford's Firestone issue as some sort of "see, Toyota is the BESTEST!!!!" in response to somebody pointing out a OBVIOUS character flaw in how you conduct yourself in an on-line forum.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
This was part of my drivers training. This isn't a new problem. When cars had actual throttle cables, they were known to stick from time to time. We were taught to put the car in neutral and brake to a stop. It was better to blow an engine than end up dead.

This isn't a technology issue, as throttles stuck wide open is not new to drive by wire. It's a drivers training issue.



I have to agree. Simply pushing the clutch down, and braking along with tossing it into neutral if you care to, or shifting an AT to neutral and applying the brakes will stop the car. I'd worry about the blown engine later on.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Notice above GM person doesn't flame Toyota...now if it was a GM PT1 and his croonies would be all over it!

Notice the CEO from Toyota publically apologized to the family.If it were a GM they would deny it and hide behind some lawyers skirt. The Ford Firestone issue killed almost 800 people before they even admitted it was an issue. Remember how Ralph Nader got his start?


You always have to try and turn it around don't you? Can't take the criticism to the fact that you are first to fan the flames, or even light the fire about something nasty in a domestic thread, but here we are in thread about possessed Toyota's and you are COMMENDING them for APOLOGIZING because the vehicle killed four people due to an issue that appears to have potentially killed MANY more, and nobody REALLY knows what the cause is?

They screwed up. That kind of stuff happens.

Nobody is flaming Toyota.

But you've got the big pair swinging between your legs to drag up Ford's Firestone issue as some sort of "see, Toyota is the BESTEST!!!!" in response to somebody pointing out a OBVIOUS character flaw in how you conduct yourself in an on-line forum.


Sorry buy you will have to take it up with Jacque Nassar Ex-Ceo at Ford as he publically denied there was a problem with the Exporer even after more than 800 people were killed all the way until Bill Ford kicked him out. These are documented facts. Just because you are uninformed doesn't mean that didn't happen. The Ford Explorer was the indutry's #1 SUV until this happened. Oh and unless you didn't know...Ralph Nader made his bones on the GM Corvair which they denied. Nobody but you said Toyota is best but at least the CEO isn't hiding. That is my point and why I buy a car from an ethical car company.

 

[ksJoe]

So are all the affected cars drive by wire? I know my IS350 is. That would introduce another possibility - if the sensor in the accelerator pedal malfunctions, it could falsely report full throttle.

They could put dual sensors in the pedal, and require they report the same. With anything more than a slight variation, trip a code and put the car in limp mode.

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: ksJoe
So are all the affected cars drive by wire? I know my IS350 is. That would introduce another possibility - if the sensor in the accelerator pedal malfunctions, it could falsely report full throttle.

They could put dual sensors in the pedal, and require they report the same. With anything more than a slight variation, trip a code and put the car in limp mode.


I don't know if there is a vehicle made anymore that is not drive by wire. It could be a malfunction anywhere in the system hardware or software.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Notice above GM person doesn't flame Toyota...now if it was a GM PT1 and his croonies would be all over it!

Notice the CEO from Toyota publically apologized to the family.If it were a GM they would deny it and hide behind some lawyers skirt. The Ford Firestone issue killed almost 800 people before they even admitted it was an issue. Remember how Ralph Nader got his start?


You always have to try and turn it around don't you? Can't take the criticism to the fact that you are first to fan the flames, or even light the fire about something nasty in a domestic thread, but here we are in thread about possessed Toyota's and you are COMMENDING them for APOLOGIZING because the vehicle killed four people due to an issue that appears to have potentially killed MANY more, and nobody REALLY knows what the cause is?

They screwed up. That kind of stuff happens.

Nobody is flaming Toyota.

But you've got the big pair swinging between your legs to drag up Ford's Firestone issue as some sort of "see, Toyota is the BESTEST!!!!" in response to somebody pointing out a OBVIOUS character flaw in how you conduct yourself in an on-line forum.


Sorry buy you will have to take it up with Jacque Nassar Ex-Ceo at Ford as he publically denied there was a problem with the Exporer even after more than 800 people were killed all the way until Bill Ford kicked him out. These are documented facts. Just because you are uninformed doesn't mean that didn't happen. The Ford Explorer was the indutry's #1 SUV until this happened. Oh and unless you didn't know...Ralph Nader made his bones on the GM Corvair which they denied. Nobody but you said Toyota is best but at least the CEO isn't hiding. That is my point and why I buy a car from an ethical car company.


You just completely walked around my point.

Just like you walked around GMBoy's point.

You have no problem talking [censored] about Ford. You just did it. AGAIN. You have no problem talking [censored] about GM. You just did it. AGAIN.

But the instant Toyota screws up, you've got a list of excuses longer than Rita McNeill's room service bill. Trying to find the positive, ANY positive out of a very grave situation.

You don't get it. I don't give two sweet squeaks of a Unicorn's sphincter about how Jaque Nasser "screwed up" or how Ralph Nader is the anti-Christ. This thread isn't about Ford OR GM. But you, in your incessant Toyota zealotism made it a point to try and drag Toyota up by AGAIN pushing those two down just so that Toyota doesn't get flamed.

Which wasn't happening anyways!

Why?

Because this isn't a thread about Ford or GM's screw-ups, so you and your posse aren't working the red-eye making sure everybody knows how evil they are and how they are run by [censored]'s disciples and feast on the flesh of little children.


No, this thread is about Toyota having a serious safety issue and a distinct lack of a known cause. That is a genuine concern.

The point being made was that others are grown-up enough not to kick Toyota in the stones when they are down. The same cannot be said for you and Toyota's competition.

 

[IntegraVT]

CR has a blog post with a quick test of some new cars on their track, including a Toyota Venza, that pretty much confirms what we're talking about -

Originally Posted By: "Consumer Reports"
"So what should you do if you are put in such a situation? The answer is simple: Put the car in neutral. In each one of the cars we tested, we were able to easily nudge the gear lever into neutral and stop the car quickly. All modern engines have rev limiters that prevent the engine from over revving and damaging the engine. You can safely shut off the engine after you come to a stop."

 

[PT1]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


You just completely walked around my point.

Just like you walked around GMBoy's point.

You have no problem talking [censored] about Ford. You just did it. AGAIN. You have no problem talking [censored] about GM. You just did it. AGAIN.

But the instant Toyota screws up, you've got a list of excuses longer than Rita McNeill's room service bill. Trying to find the positive, ANY positive out of a very grave situation.

You don't get it. I don't give two sweet squeaks of a Unicorn's sphincter about how Jaque Nasser "screwed up" or how Ralph Nader is the anti-Christ. This thread isn't about Ford OR GM. But you, in your incessant Toyota zealotism made it a point to try and drag Toyota up by AGAIN pushing those two down just so that Toyota doesn't get flamed.

Which wasn't happening anyways!

Why?

Because this isn't a thread about Ford or GM's screw-ups, so you and your posse aren't working the red-eye making sure everybody knows how evil they are and how they are run by [censored]'s disciples and feast on the flesh of little children.


No, this thread is about Toyota having a serious safety issue and a distinct lack of a known cause. That is a genuine concern.

The point being made was that others are grown-up enough not to kick Toyota in the stones when they are down. The same cannot be said for you and Toyota's competition.



You guys need to quit trolling on here...and following my posts with the "see what he said now"? Dude...I'm not your Dad. Get over it.

 

[Vizzy]

That's it, put the car in Neutral (engine will be protected by the rev limiter) and steer and brake safely to a complete stop.


This is a case of drivers simply NOT being responsible for understanding how their car functions. I bet dollars on it that if you READ the owner's manual the operation of the emergency shut off via the start button is clearly outlined!

You can't ALWAYS protect blithering idiots from themselves!
Of course the other competent individuals end up suffering due to others that have no business on the road.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I think the PCM programming should be improved. The current one looks like this (seriously exagerated):

Start/Stop Button: Someone is pressing me repeatedly, I better tell PCM. . . .