It’s like the Jim Cramer conundrum… he’s got a solid record of giving top recommendations on companies mere days before their stock tanks… so if you short whatever Cramer recommends you will be almost as rich as Nancy Pelosi! 
Toyota's Hydrogen Engine Instead of EVs
- Thread starter ZeeOSix
- Start date
IMO, New Flyer might buy out Ballard as part of their ZEV strategy - they are the only maker of fuel cells for transit buses and New Flyer uses Ballard. Daimler Truck and Cummins probably uses Toyota or UTC patents under license.
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Hydrogen is significantly more challenging to handle and transport than propane. It's extremely leaky, invisible, has no smell, and requires extremely high pressure. Some of the challenges are outlined in this article:
Also, you must have a short memory, this was March of this year:
Last year:
Businesses evacuated due to 'active explosion' at equipment facility in Toronto
A number of Etobicoke businesses were evacuated after a fire ignited outside an equipment rental businesses on Tuesday afternoon, engulfing dozens of propane tanks.toronto.ctvnews.ca
And of course the Sunrise propane explosion in 2008:
Toronto propane explosion - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Ottawa construction site (natural gas) explosion from this year:
Ottawa neighbourhood devastated by massive explosion
Officials say everyone is accounted for after a massive explosion at an east Ottawa construction site Monday morning. The blast injured 12 people, including two children and two people who were trapped in the rubble.ottawa.ctvnews.ca
January of this year, propane facility explosion in Montreal:
At least three people missing after explosion at Quebec propane company
Quebec provincial police (SQ) are now reporting at least three people missing following an explosion at a fuel distribution company in the Lanaudiere region. As of 10:30 p.m. Thursday, no deaths have been confirmed.montreal.ctvnews.ca
The list is massive.
So the fossil sources are probably either better or more stable.. You only listed some Canada explosions.
Could say that unfortunately some flames/explosions during the course of handling flammable and explosive things is part of the cost of doing business.
The only good explosions are the ones happening in the cylinders of an ICE vehicle!
Normal combustion events in engine cylinders are not explosions. LSPI is, but what's so good about it?
Amen brother.
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I call fail. They are controlled explosions. They push the pistons down, on that stroke. Even the flame front comes from a controlled explosion... spark ignites... what does spark igniting gas make... Have a great day...
He’s talking about how the combustion is propagated. You don’t want it initiated by a shock wave.
An explosion is a rapid expansion in volume associated with an extreme outward release of energy, usually with the generation of high temperatures and release of high-pressure gases. Supersonic explosions created by high explosives are known as detonations and travel through shock waves. Subsonic explosions are created by low explosives through a slower combustion process known as deflagration.
Deflagration (Lat: de + flagrare, "to burn down") is subsonic combustion in which a pre-mixed flame propagates through a mixture of fuel and oxidizer.[1] Deflagrations can only occur in pre-mixed fuels. Most fires found in daily life are diffusion flames. Deflagrations with flame speeds in the range of 1 m/sec differ from detonations which propagate supersonically through shock waves with speeds in the range of 1 km/sec.[2]
Deflagration (Lat: de + flagrare, "to burn down") is subsonic combustion in which a pre-mixed flame propagates through a mixture of fuel and oxidizer.[1] Deflagrations can only occur in pre-mixed fuels. Most fires found in daily life are diffusion flames. Deflagrations with flame speeds in the range of 1 m/sec differ from detonations which propagate supersonically through shock waves with speeds in the range of 1 km/sec.[2]
There is no way I'm telling anyone my engine suffers from Deflagration. If I do their next question will be, "How much did it cost to fix it?"
You guys need one of these.Judging from the duck curve progression, living with inefficient use of energy might become more common in California.
At midday pump water up, at the evening let the water flow back down as hydro power.
Seneca Pumped Storage Generating Station - Wikipedia
This one is currently under development. It’s a mined out coal mine pit on top of a mountain.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
You guys need one of these.
At midday pump water up, at the evening let the water flow back down as hydro power.
Seneca Pumped Storage Generating Station - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
Both of those are pretty small (451MW and 75MW), that duck curve shows a 2,200MW capacity ramp!
Meaford, which is another TC project planned for here in Ontario is 1,000MW, while Raccoon Mountain, owned by TVA, is 1,616MW.
I'm reading this thread when I should be writing an exam I'm giving tomorrow.
One of the topics on it is electrochemistry, and I'm actually trying to think through if I could have my students calculate how thermodynamically unfavorable electrolysis of water is. Given how much we focus(in gen chem II) on predicting spontaneity and don't really do a lot of math with forcing non-spontaneous processes I'm not sure if I could pull it off for an exam question. It would be an interesting one, though. We do talk about electrolysis(in general) and use a rule of thumb of it requiring .4-.6V over the standard cell potential to occur...
Maybe a homework problem for the next time I teach the class...
Interesting topic!
Input:
- 55 MWh of electricity
- 0,15 eur/kWh
=> 8250 eur
Output:
- 1000kg of hydrogen
=> 8,3 eur/kg
Produced hydrogen:
- 40 kWh/kg (energy density)
=> 40 MWh of energy
=> Calculated with efficiency 73% (40/55)
From Wikipedia:
Current best processes for water electrolysis have an effective electrical efficiency of 70-80%, so that producing 1 kg of hydrogen (which has a specific energy of 143 MJ/kg or about 40 kWh/kg) requires 50–55 kWh of electricity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy
Input:
- 55 MWh of electricity
- 0,15 eur/kWh
=> 8250 eur
Output:
- 1000kg of hydrogen
=> 8,3 eur/kg
Produced hydrogen:
- 40 kWh/kg (energy density)
=> 40 MWh of energy
=> Calculated with efficiency 73% (40/55)
From Wikipedia:
Current best processes for water electrolysis have an effective electrical efficiency of 70-80%, so that producing 1 kg of hydrogen (which has a specific energy of 143 MJ/kg or about 40 kWh/kg) requires 50–55 kWh of electricity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy
Hydrogen fuel cell car consumes about 1kg of hydrogen per 100km (60miles). So cost to drive a hydrogen passenger car is at minimum 8.3 eur/100km.
With taxes included, I think hydrogen could be priced here double to that, so 16 eur/kg => 16 eur/100km.
Gasoline costs here now 2.00 eur/liter (which includes taxes for 1.10 eur/liter). Fuel consumption of my Nissan Primera is 8 liters/100km (US: 30 MPG, $8 per gallon).
=> So cost to drive my gasoline car is now 16 eur/100km, identical to what it would cost to drive a hydrogen car.
With taxes included, I think hydrogen could be priced here double to that, so 16 eur/kg => 16 eur/100km.
Gasoline costs here now 2.00 eur/liter (which includes taxes for 1.10 eur/liter). Fuel consumption of my Nissan Primera is 8 liters/100km (US: 30 MPG, $8 per gallon).
=> So cost to drive my gasoline car is now 16 eur/100km, identical to what it would cost to drive a hydrogen car.
Last edited:
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I watched the video. The use of rare metals (Iridium and Platinum) in hydrogen fuel cell made hydrogen-ICE sound a lot better idea than before. With H-ICE there’s no need for those rare metals.
I would also challenge the video’s argument that green e-hydrogen couldn’t become economically competetive with dirty hydrogen made from fossil fuels. In EU we already have CO2 emission fees in place, which makes fossil fuels and their derivates more expensive over time, which in turn makes green/clean energy more competetive against fossil energy. This pushes market to cleaner technologies, and over time, as the technology matures, to lower prices.
One more thing is the need for fresh water. In dry areas of course EV is the right choice for cars. But the car market we are talking here is the whole world. I’m sure there are places where you have a lot of sun or wind + fresh water readily available. In these places hydrogen-ICE could be the winner.
Anyway, I believe that the future can be much more diversified than it is today. We are quite accustomed that coal, oil and LNG are routinely transported long distanced from the edge of the world to near you. In the future energy production will be much closer to the market, as it doesn’t make sense to transfer electricity or hydrogen overseas, to different continents. That’s why hydrogen makes sense in some places, and EVs in others.
I would also challenge the video’s argument that green e-hydrogen couldn’t become economically competetive with dirty hydrogen made from fossil fuels. In EU we already have CO2 emission fees in place, which makes fossil fuels and their derivates more expensive over time, which in turn makes green/clean energy more competetive against fossil energy. This pushes market to cleaner technologies, and over time, as the technology matures, to lower prices.
One more thing is the need for fresh water. In dry areas of course EV is the right choice for cars. But the car market we are talking here is the whole world. I’m sure there are places where you have a lot of sun or wind + fresh water readily available. In these places hydrogen-ICE could be the winner.
Anyway, I believe that the future can be much more diversified than it is today. We are quite accustomed that coal, oil and LNG are routinely transported long distanced from the edge of the world to near you. In the future energy production will be much closer to the market, as it doesn’t make sense to transfer electricity or hydrogen overseas, to different continents. That’s why hydrogen makes sense in some places, and EVs in others.
Oh, and I almost forgot. eFuel in PHEV is quite good combo also. You only need smaller battery to drive locally with carbon free electricity, and longer journeys you can drive with normal ICE which burns eFuel. CO2 free driving is already almost here.
almost similar as "range extender"
I could be mixed up but I thought storage capacity was a issue with hydrogen also? I recall watching a video that showed how big the tank would have to be to have similar range to a gas ICE SUV and it took up all of the cargo capacity? Also it needs to be stored under high pressure so not what I wang to be driving down the road…
