Toyota's Hydrogen Engine Instead of EVs
- Thread starter ZeeOSix
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If people are smart there is no way hydrogen power will ever be the answer unless we live on Jupiter and can suck raw hydrogen from the atmosphere and compress it.
Companies like SoCalGas insist that their hydrogen will be clean, but that’s a lofty promise to make when currently 95% of hydrogen energy comes from fracked gas. The other 5%, called “green” hydrogen, comes from splitting water molecules with electricity from renewable energy.
But even if industry could produce “green” hydrogen at scale, it would still be wasteful and inefficient. Compared to renewable-powered batteries, which are 80% efficient, hydrogen fuel cells are only 30%. That makes hydrogen far more expensive than renewable-based electric power.
What’s more, hydrogen is a thirsty power source. Throughout its life cycle, each megawatt-hour of “green” hydrogen consumes at least 5,000 liters of water. Compare that to solar, which uses 20 liters per MWh, or wind, which uses just 1 liter per MWh.
Companies like SoCalGas insist that their hydrogen will be clean, but that’s a lofty promise to make when currently 95% of hydrogen energy comes from fracked gas. The other 5%, called “green” hydrogen, comes from splitting water molecules with electricity from renewable energy.
But even if industry could produce “green” hydrogen at scale, it would still be wasteful and inefficient. Compared to renewable-powered batteries, which are 80% efficient, hydrogen fuel cells are only 30%. That makes hydrogen far more expensive than renewable-based electric power.
What’s more, hydrogen is a thirsty power source. Throughout its life cycle, each megawatt-hour of “green” hydrogen consumes at least 5,000 liters of water. Compare that to solar, which uses 20 liters per MWh, or wind, which uses just 1 liter per MWh.
The engine sounds like a winner. Making the fuel for it, not so much. Like prizm said, unless we discover a large, cheap source of hydrogen to power it, it ain't happening.
This is a classic example of putting the cart before the horse. You have to construct the fuel supply and delivery network, BEFORE the engine that runs on it. Not the other way around.
This is the big problem with EV's, along with Toyota's hydrogen powered Mirai program that flopped. You would think they would have learned their lesson. But instead it would appear Toyota is falling into that same rabbit hole..... Again.
This is a classic example of putting the cart before the horse. You have to construct the fuel supply and delivery network, BEFORE the engine that runs on it. Not the other way around.
This is the big problem with EV's, along with Toyota's hydrogen powered Mirai program that flopped. You would think they would have learned their lesson. But instead it would appear Toyota is falling into that same rabbit hole..... Again.
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Doesn't need to be clean, most important is carbon neutral. All Castrols Edge oils in eu are carbon neutral for example
FIFY. People care far more about their wallet, than they do their, "carbon footprint".
actually no, just wait
For what?
You missed the major issue. Hydrogen takes an enormous amount of power to separate from other elements. It is barely present in our atmosphere, which contains just 0.00005%.
Yes and no, i do care more about my wallet. My neighbor care more about being political correct. Carbon footprint will arrive to USA sooner or later. EU is just way ahead with that
"Sooner or later" we'll all be dead. Besides, that whole "carbon footprint / carbon credits" nonsense came straight from Al Gore.
And Europe is hardly a model for energy distribution or consumption. They might be if everyone did the exact opposite of what they do.
totally agree with you, but it doesn't need to be green
that's also correct
hard to response to you when you edit your posts after i responded to you, But...Also i agree on your edit. But when it comes to carbon neutral we are much ahead on that
Spare us the moral preening.
Finland would be the 23rd largest state. So, your accomplishment in renewables is like South Carolina bragging about its energy production. Interesting, but such a small part of the problem that it doesn’t make much difference. Don’t forget that your country burns more wood than just about anyone else. 25% of your power comes from burning Wood. You’re the only country in the EU still burning Peat, one of the only two left in the world still spewing carbon from peat, and you have the highest energy consumption per capita in the EU. Not really a position from which to brag.
Your accomplishments come primarily from nuclear and hydro, which have a disproportionate impact because of your small population. The EU is ahead because of the French commitment to nuclear.
Back to the topic, the key point is: hydrogen is a fossil fuel.
We are a very long way from it being carbon neutral. Right now, the hydrogen fuel cycle (energy required for steam reformation of natural gas, sourcing natural gas, etc.) has a larger carbon foot print than gasoline.
I applaud Toyota, but that doesn’t make this technology even remotely beneficial for the environment.
But that water is made again by the burning of the hydrogen in the engine and it comes out the tailpipe.
Why? Would it have been any different if I had just gone ahead and wasted the bandwidth by creating yet another post saying the same thing?
Two important points -
1: you’re not getting all the water back, because some of it was used for production processes, not completely turned into hydrogen.
2: fresh water is becoming scarce, ask California, and the water out the tailpipe isn’t adding to that supply.
Here is the simple energy reality of using electricity to produce hydrogen. The thought is to use windmills to produce electricity and then use electrolysis of water to produce “ green “ hydrogen.
An obvious (to me) possibility is to run desalination plants for fresh water from salt water, and build facilities by those plants for producing hydrogen from some of the new fresh water. Everything would be together. The plants could use the best available energy sources, maybe primarily nuclear, augmented by solar on building roofs.
San Diego has desalination plants for its water supply. There's no reason other parts of the West Coast couldn't look at this approach.
San Diego has desalination plants for its water supply. There's no reason other parts of the West Coast couldn't look at this approach.
Judging from the duck curve progression, living with inefficient use of energy might become more common in California.
