Toyota TGMO 0W-20 SN VOA with VI, TBN, and TAN

[CATERHAM]

And I'd be interested something worthwhile from your other than you typical pedantic harping. So what do you think the HTHSV is, you who has never used the oil or any other 20 grade for that matter. Not a clue just as I thought.

As far as the VI is concerned, since you seem to think the 236 figure is accurate, why don't you put your money where you mouth is and have the oil re-tested by another lab of your choosing.
The looser then makes a $100 donation to BITOG?

 

[Shannow]

If you can find a lab that directly measures VI, test your own sample, and I'll pay your donation...how's that ?

If you can only find one that measures KV40 and KV100, and calculates the VI, then you are on your own.

The 236 IS the viscosity index that arises from the KV40 and KV100 that the lab that Gokhan used measured.

The viscosity index for the MSDS, which is hardly a product data sheet IS 225.

Both are a dimensionless number, calculated from two measured numbers.

If anything is in error, then you are arguing with the the KV40 and KV100 results, and the difference between the tests posted in this thread, versus the MSDS.

Given that ideally, the sample and equipment need to be within +/- 0.02C, and testing should ideally take minutes of flow, it's unlikely that viscosity can be measured in a quick lab, even calibrated properly to within a percent up or down. And that percent is probably of full scale, not the measured value...

not sure on how long the machine takes to get up and down to temp, so it's unlikely (IMO) that KV40 and KV100 are measured on the same machine even.

Take the Mobil MSDS figures, and say they are on the same machine for argument's sake, to rule out a variable.

Say that the machine has a full scale of 50, as if it can measure way more than the viscosities in question, it's accuracy at KV100 will be worse...each measurement is therefore +/- 0.5cst.

KV40 of 36.1 can be 35.6, or 36.6...will be somewhere in between,
KV100 of 8.5 can be 8, or 9. Similarly, it will be somewhere in between.

VI can therefore be anywhere from 200-249, and still be correct.

 

[bluesubie]

I'm still trying to figure out why anyone should Consider this the official VOA of TGMO 0W-20 SN.

-Dennis

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Fuel economy correlates with HTHSV not KV100.


http://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAdditives/ACEA/ConferencePapers/FuelEconomy.pdf

GO to page 18...

HTHS is applicable...in high shear rate areas.

KV100 is applicable...in the first "Newtonian" period

As shown in the chart, a 3.5 HTHS 30 is more economical than a 3.5 HTHS 40...as an example.

So if Toyota bump up KV100, for a given HTHS, they are sacrificing economy..some economy...certainly not "huge" amounts...

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
There is a MSDS on Mobil made TGMO 0W-20 and IIRC the VI is quite high at 225 but we've never been able to reproduce that figure.

I've never seen an MSDS that publishes the VI. What would be the point of it? I would like to see that.

Besides, MSDSs are not meant for final technical specs anyway, as we all know, and any detail in them should never be taken too seriously.

As the base-stock quality improves over time, with the oil manufacturers constantly working to improve it, it's normal for the VI of the blended oil (base stocks + VII) to increase.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
There is a MSDS on Mobil made TGMO 0W-20 and IIRC the VI is quite high at 225 but we've never been able to reproduce that figure.

I've never seen an MSDS that publishes the VI.

I'm guessing CATERHAM meant that based on the 40C and 100C viscosities given in MSDS, the VI could be calculated to be 225. Same way Wearcheck calculated it.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
There is a MSDS on Mobil made TGMO 0W-20 and IIRC the VI is quite high at 225 but we've never been able to reproduce that figure.

I've never seen an MSDS that publishes the VI.

I'm guessing CATERHAM meant that based on the 40C and 100C viscosities given in MSDS, the VI could be calculated to be 225. Same way Wearcheck calculated it.

Still, any detailed spec in any MSDS us not to be taken seriously.

There is no KV or VI spec in any current TGMO MSDS.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
There is no KV or VI spec in any current TGMO MSDS.

Where did Shannow get his KV numbers from then?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...A_w#Post3357331

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
There is no KV or VI spec in any current TGMO MSDS.

Where did Shannow get his KV numbers from then?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...A_w#Post3357331

OK, they actually do have the KV values in the MSDS I had posted.

KV40 is very close to what WearCheck got and KV100 is too thin in comparison to both of my UOAs (Blackstone and WearCheck) as well as my VOA. This simply means they later increased the amount of VII in the blended oil or started using a more potent VII, which increased the KV100 and VI.

I really have faith in the WearCheck values. They're a worldwide company and those guys have the most advanced testing systems among all UOA labs. That's the reason why I chose them for my UOAs and VOAs.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
This simply means they later increased the amount of VII in the blended oil or started using a more potent VII, which increased the KV100 and VI.

To me, it simply means that Wearcheck values are within a margin of error. You will never get the lab reading to be exactly the same as on the spec sheet. There is batch-to-batch variation, and then there is the lab/test error - it's not an exact science. If you were to send them another sample, the results would have been slightly different. They are still very close to the numbers on in the MSDS, in my opinion. You can't really ask for more accuracy out of a $20 VOA.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
This simply means they later increased the amount of VII in the blended oil or started using a more potent VII, which increased the KV100 and VI.

To me, it simply means that Wearcheck values are within a margin of error. You will never get the lab reading to be exactly the same as on the spec sheet. There is batch-to-batch variation, and then there is the lab/test error - it's not an exact science. If you were to send them another sample, the results would have been slightly different. They are still very close to the numbers on in the MSDS, in my opinion. You can't really ask for more accuracy out of a $20 VOA.

No, as I said, all my UOA and VOA KV @ 100 C values with TGMO 0W-20 SN from different labs have been 8.7 cSt or higher. I've never got a low, 8.50 cSt value.

Blackstone UOA: 8.97 cSt
WearCheck UOA: 8.68 cSt
WearCheck VOA: 8.79 cSt

 

[Quattro Pete]

Here's one VOA from 2013 that shows KV @ 100C at 8.49 cSt:

http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/8410-toyota-genuine-0w-20-kanistra-plastik/

By the way, it reports Noack of 10.3.


Also, a UOA after 11.4k km that shows KV@100C at 7,91 cSt:
http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/8408-toyota-genuine-0w-20-posle-11-400-km-na-toyota-highlander/

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Here's one VOA from 2013 that shows KV @ 100C at 8.49 cSt:

http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/8410-toyota-genuine-0w-20-kanistra-plastik/

By the way, it reports Noack of 10.3.


Also, a UOA after 11.4k km that shows KV@100C at 7,91 cSt:
http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/8408-toyota-genuine-0w-20-posle-11-400-km-na-toyota-highlander/

Many people don't bother to drive the car for at least 15 miles (24 kilometers) before taking a UOA sample; so, many people have a lot of fuel dilution. Also, many labs have a lot of error in their KV measurements.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I got the TGMO 0W-20 SN for $5.65 a quart at a local Toyota dealer. They have a parts Web site I can order from that gives 22% off MSRP and then I go there and pick it up will-call.

If local Toyota dealers in Orange county has similar price I would buy some, but down here they demand $7-8/qt.

I hate paying $2-3/qt more than M1 AFE and EP.

What I do is to make a printout of the Carson Toyota online-parts-catalog page for TGMO 0W-20 SN:

Carson Toyota TGMO 0W-20 SN

Then, I take the printout to the nearest Toyota dealer and ask them if they could match Carson Toyota's online price because I don't want drive all the way to Carson. They will usually say, "Sure."

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Also, many labs have a lot of error in their KV measurements.

ALL labs have some amount of error. Wearcheck is good, but they're not exempt from it.

 

[Shannow]

Pretty much the point that I was trying to get across.

 

[Gokhan]

Certainly, there is error in every experiment and ideally it needs to be reported along with the data.

AMSOIL says their KV and VI data have an error of ±0.35%.

So, if WearCheck error is the same as AMSOIL, I should report my viscosities and viscosity index for TGMO 0W-20 SN as:

TGMO 0W-20 SN

KV40: 36.16 ± 0.13 cSt
KV100: 8.79 ± 0.03 cSt
VI: 236 ± 1

 

[Shannow]

There's a difference between manufacturing tolerances, and lab testing...

Before posting my example, I had a look at some of the lab equipment viscometer suppliers, and their accuracies were quoted as 1% full scale, with repeatability of 0.2-0.8% of full scale.

http://www.pasuk.com/downloads/Lab_Viscometer_with_Temp_Control_3000.pdf

https://b2b.paclp.com/HTML/item_master/links/VISCOlab 4000.pdf

Difference between a manufacturing environment (e.g.Amsoil) is that if the viscosity reads off, they will test and re-test, to identify if it's sample or machine, and fix either.

A post service lab are reporting simply what they see, once off, in their machine...to the accuracy limits of said machine.

 

[Gokhan]

Well, even with 1% error, VI comes to 236 ± 2.

If it's 2%, VI is 236 ± 5.

They don't report their error; so, we could hope it's small.

As I said, I drive for at least 15 miles before the UOAs to get rid of fuel dilution, and my KV100 values have always been above 8.7 cSt.

 

[Capa]

Gokhan,

Many thanks for posting this! Wow, this oil is legit. I got some free Toyota 0W-20 because of a dealership mess up on a transmission flush and so right now I am running the Caterham blend in my Lexus V8. It's only been in for about two weeks but if I can get the oil for less than $6 I will probably continue to use it.