I don't believe it was the floor mat...the driver was a trained CHP officer who could have pulled the mat or shut the car down or at least put it in neutral. I am thinking now after reading up on this there in an issue with the ETC.
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If he put the car in neutral, how would the ETC play a part? I haven't listened to the 911 call but my bet would be that panic was rampant.
From the article:
Quote:
The Japanese automaker warned owners that if they think their vehicle is accelerating out of control, they should check to see whether their floor mat is under the pedal. If a driver can't remove the floor mat, Toyota advises drivers to step on the brake pedal with both feet until the vehicle slows and then try to put it into neutral and switch the ignition to accessory power.
To me sounds like some Toyota cars cannot be turned off or shifted to neutral at high speeds.
Or, maybe I'm wrong and the driver "simply" panicked. Heck, I would probably panic, too.
Quote:
The Japanese automaker warned owners that if they think their vehicle is accelerating out of control, they should check to see whether their floor mat is under the pedal. If a driver can't remove the floor mat, Toyota advises drivers to step on the brake pedal with both feet until the vehicle slows and then try to put it into neutral and switch the ignition to accessory power.
To me sounds like some Toyota cars cannot be turned off or shifted to neutral at high speeds.
Or, maybe I'm wrong and the driver "simply" panicked. Heck, I would probably panic, too.
Newer mind my previous post. It could be a perfect storm non-ergonomic design: mislabeled and misleading shifter and non intuitive and not documented turn off button procedure. I guess some people will prefer to call it driver's error, but I would disagree. I saw it on Edmunds link
Quote:
I own an ES350 for many years and I didn’t even know that to turn off the engine of my car while driving, I need to hold the On/Off switch for 3 seconds. Also it is common because of the irregular shift pattern on this vehicle, for new drivers to mistakenly drive in the manual shift mode. In this mode the car will still automatically shift when the RPM’s reach a high enough level; however the N for neutral is located adjacent to the up shift position when in manual shift, so if in an emergency you are unaware of this you would push the shift up to the N position but are actually up shifting the gears. As far a breaking, a coworker of mine had a Camry accelerator stick full throttle because of debris in the tube that the accelerator arm travels through and when his accelerator stuck he was unable to stop even uphill with full break force.
I guess the Neutral is not next to N, but rather in the middle of the shifter in ES350:
Quote:
I own an ES350 for many years and I didn’t even know that to turn off the engine of my car while driving, I need to hold the On/Off switch for 3 seconds. Also it is common because of the irregular shift pattern on this vehicle, for new drivers to mistakenly drive in the manual shift mode. In this mode the car will still automatically shift when the RPM’s reach a high enough level; however the N for neutral is located adjacent to the up shift position when in manual shift, so if in an emergency you are unaware of this you would push the shift up to the N position but are actually up shifting the gears. As far a breaking, a coworker of mine had a Camry accelerator stick full throttle because of debris in the tube that the accelerator arm travels through and when his accelerator stuck he was unable to stop even uphill with full break force.
I guess the Neutral is not next to N, but rather in the middle of the shifter in ES350:
That is an incredibly stupid shifter. Any reason why they can't just have a classic vertical pattern with 1 branch to either side of D for autostick?
Nonetheless, I would imagine one with enough time to accelerate to 120 and call 911 would think to pull or have the passenger pull out the obstruction. It seems as though the floor mat was not the culprit here.
Nonetheless, I would imagine one with enough time to accelerate to 120 and call 911 would think to pull or have the passenger pull out the obstruction. It seems as though the floor mat was not the culprit here.
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: PT1
The GM would have stalled dur to the piston slapper engine and never made it to 120mph....
My Ecotec-powered Saab 93 made it to 135MPH. It didn't stall. It didn't roll over. It was, in fact, quite composed at those speeds.
Same here. My old 80's pushrod piston slapper has been north of 170mph. Though composed is not a word I would use.
Originally Posted By: PT1
The GM would have stalled dur to the piston slapper engine and never made it to 120mph....
My Ecotec-powered Saab 93 made it to 135MPH. It didn't stall. It didn't roll over. It was, in fact, quite composed at those speeds.
Same here. My old 80's pushrod piston slapper has been north of 170mph. Though composed is not a word I would use.
Originally Posted By: FusilliJerry82
Nonetheless, I would imagine one with enough time to accelerate to 120 and call 911 would think to pull or have the passenger pull out the obstruction. It seems as though the floor mat was not the culprit here.
You are incorrect, the driver did not call, his brother in law did. The call lasted mere 30 sec. before they died, go ahead and listen to it. The driver was busy dodging the cars in his way. The 272 HP V6 in this car does 0-60 in 6.8 secs so it took only seconds to go 60-120 with WOT. I can imagine they were pressing the off button repeatedly to no evail and pushing the gear level into the mislabeled "N" position with no effect. Tragic way to go.
Nonetheless, I would imagine one with enough time to accelerate to 120 and call 911 would think to pull or have the passenger pull out the obstruction. It seems as though the floor mat was not the culprit here.
You are incorrect, the driver did not call, his brother in law did. The call lasted mere 30 sec. before they died, go ahead and listen to it. The driver was busy dodging the cars in his way. The 272 HP V6 in this car does 0-60 in 6.8 secs so it took only seconds to go 60-120 with WOT. I can imagine they were pressing the off button repeatedly to no evail and pushing the gear level into the mislabeled "N" position with no effect. Tragic way to go.
Perhaps NHTSA will clarify for Toyota (and every other automaker) exactly what's wrong with their shifter.
I'd have just shoved that [censored] into PARK.
I'd have just shoved that [censored] into PARK.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: brianl703
My '06 Saab 93 won't allow you to remove the key from the ignition (locking the steering) if it's still moving...but it will allow you to shut the engine off while it's still moving.
The steering on the Saab 93 is unlocked whenever the key is in the ignition.
This must be a recent safetey feature, as my current car does the same thing, but on older cars you could remove the key while that car was in D.
My Saab 93 is a manual. It will not allow you remove the key if the car is moving faster than about 2MPH. I don't know of another car that does this, even recent models.
Originally Posted By: brianl703
My '06 Saab 93 won't allow you to remove the key from the ignition (locking the steering) if it's still moving...but it will allow you to shut the engine off while it's still moving.
The steering on the Saab 93 is unlocked whenever the key is in the ignition.
This must be a recent safetey feature, as my current car does the same thing, but on older cars you could remove the key while that car was in D.
My Saab 93 is a manual. It will not allow you remove the key if the car is moving faster than about 2MPH. I don't know of another car that does this, even recent models.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: FusilliJerry82
Nonetheless, I would imagine one with enough time to accelerate to 120 and call 911 would think to pull or have the passenger pull out the obstruction. It seems as though the floor mat was not the culprit here.
You are incorrect, the driver did not call, his brother in law did. The call lasted mere 30 sec. before they died, go ahead and listen to it. The driver was busy dodging the cars in his way. The 272 HP V6 in this car does 0-60 in 6.8 secs so it took only seconds to go 60-120 with WOT. I can imagine they were pressing the off button repeatedly to no evail and pushing the gear level into the mislabeled "N" position with no effect. Tragic way to go.
Just to clarify, 60-120 likely takes more like 20 seconds.
Originally Posted By: FusilliJerry82
Nonetheless, I would imagine one with enough time to accelerate to 120 and call 911 would think to pull or have the passenger pull out the obstruction. It seems as though the floor mat was not the culprit here.
You are incorrect, the driver did not call, his brother in law did. The call lasted mere 30 sec. before they died, go ahead and listen to it. The driver was busy dodging the cars in his way. The 272 HP V6 in this car does 0-60 in 6.8 secs so it took only seconds to go 60-120 with WOT. I can imagine they were pressing the off button repeatedly to no evail and pushing the gear level into the mislabeled "N" position with no effect. Tragic way to go.
Just to clarify, 60-120 likely takes more like 20 seconds.
I've had things get stuck under my brake pedal doing highway speeds (thankfully not when there's a jam right in front of me), and I've simply had the passenger reach into the pedal well and pull out the obstruction. I simply cannot see a floor mat causing this accident where no one thought to or couldn't actually pull it out.
We can only speculate, but Audi had similar problem in late 80's or early 90's, with run away cars. When they investigated, most cases happened on the parking lot and drivers were older, and at that time there was no shifter lock for park position, you could shift from park without pressing brake pedal.
In all cases drivers swore they were pressing the brake pedal as hard as they could, but the car kept accelerating, it turned out they were pressing the gas pedal, so in panic situations weird things can happen.
It may not be the case with Lexus, as back then there was no electronics with wierd logics to interfere with driver's input.
In all cases drivers swore they were pressing the brake pedal as hard as they could, but the car kept accelerating, it turned out they were pressing the gas pedal, so in panic situations weird things can happen.
It may not be the case with Lexus, as back then there was no electronics with wierd logics to interfere with driver's input.
The bottom line is that TOYOTA lost its way a long time ago when they forgot about total quality and reliability and were only interested in the most profit and volume sales...
Toyota has it easy to find its way back though..All they have to do is look at their EXCELLENT products from the 70's-early 90's....and reconnect.
Quality, reliability, simplicity, value. That WAS Toyota twenty plus years ago, and it made them a HUGE success.
Toyota has it easy to find its way back though..All they have to do is look at their EXCELLENT products from the 70's-early 90's....and reconnect.
Quality, reliability, simplicity, value. That WAS Toyota twenty plus years ago, and it made them a HUGE success.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
We can only speculate, but Audi had similar problem in late 80's or early 90's, with run away cars. When they investigated, most cases happened on the parking lot and drivers were older, and at that time there was no shifter lock for park position, you could shift from park without pressing brake pedal.
This was a problem with most cars before parking locks. I also remember seeing old police footage of cars spinning backward in a circle with no driver, they were always 70's Fords. Apparantly on some models, the shifter had a propensity to shift itself to reverse, and since the steering was locked, would spin in a circle.
We can only speculate, but Audi had similar problem in late 80's or early 90's, with run away cars. When they investigated, most cases happened on the parking lot and drivers were older, and at that time there was no shifter lock for park position, you could shift from park without pressing brake pedal.
This was a problem with most cars before parking locks. I also remember seeing old police footage of cars spinning backward in a circle with no driver, they were always 70's Fords. Apparantly on some models, the shifter had a propensity to shift itself to reverse, and since the steering was locked, would spin in a circle.
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Originally Posted By: FusilliJerry82
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
We can only speculate, but Audi had similar problem in late 80's or early 90's, with run away cars. When they investigated, most cases happened on the parking lot and drivers were older, and at that time there was no shifter lock for park position, you could shift from park without pressing brake pedal.
This was a problem with most cars before parking locks. I also remember seeing old police footage of cars spinning backward in a circle with no driver, they were always 70's Fords. Apparantly on some models, the shifter had a propensity to shift itself to reverse, and since the steering was locked, would spin in a circle.
Reminds me of the guys who defeat the safety interlock on their manual cars and equip them with a remote starter. And then one of the kids gets a hold of the key FOB......
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
We can only speculate, but Audi had similar problem in late 80's or early 90's, with run away cars. When they investigated, most cases happened on the parking lot and drivers were older, and at that time there was no shifter lock for park position, you could shift from park without pressing brake pedal.
This was a problem with most cars before parking locks. I also remember seeing old police footage of cars spinning backward in a circle with no driver, they were always 70's Fords. Apparantly on some models, the shifter had a propensity to shift itself to reverse, and since the steering was locked, would spin in a circle.
Reminds me of the guys who defeat the safety interlock on their manual cars and equip them with a remote starter. And then one of the kids gets a hold of the key FOB......
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: FusilliJerry82
Nonetheless, I would imagine one with enough time to accelerate to 120 and call 911 would think to pull or have the passenger pull out the obstruction. It seems as though the floor mat was not the culprit here.
You are incorrect, the driver did not call, his brother in law did. The call lasted mere 30 sec. before they died, go ahead and listen to it. The driver was busy dodging the cars in his way. The 272 HP V6 in this car does 0-60 in 6.8 secs so it took only seconds to go 60-120 with WOT. I can imagine they were pressing the off button repeatedly to no evail and pushing the gear level into the mislabeled "N" position with no effect. Tragic way to go.
Just to clarify, 60-120 likely takes more like 20 seconds.
Ummm, my Tundra easily went from 60-110 in about 5 seconds. That is with the vehicle loaded. I would think that the Lexus could reach the speeds in under 20 seconds.
As far as the mats go, there are clips that hold the mats to the floor. My 2003 has it and my 2008 has them. I would call this a tragic accident.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: FusilliJerry82
Nonetheless, I would imagine one with enough time to accelerate to 120 and call 911 would think to pull or have the passenger pull out the obstruction. It seems as though the floor mat was not the culprit here.
You are incorrect, the driver did not call, his brother in law did. The call lasted mere 30 sec. before they died, go ahead and listen to it. The driver was busy dodging the cars in his way. The 272 HP V6 in this car does 0-60 in 6.8 secs so it took only seconds to go 60-120 with WOT. I can imagine they were pressing the off button repeatedly to no evail and pushing the gear level into the mislabeled "N" position with no effect. Tragic way to go.
Just to clarify, 60-120 likely takes more like 20 seconds.
Ummm, my Tundra easily went from 60-110 in about 5 seconds. That is with the vehicle loaded. I would think that the Lexus could reach the speeds in under 20 seconds.
As far as the mats go, there are clips that hold the mats to the floor. My 2003 has it and my 2008 has them. I would call this a tragic accident.
Originally Posted By: Amkeer
Ummm, my Tundra easily went from 60-110 in about 5 seconds.
Is that in km/h or mph?
Ummm, my Tundra easily went from 60-110 in about 5 seconds.
Is that in km/h or mph?
I wonder if this particular model has an event data recorder in it so that they could find out if the driver was pressing the brake or gas pedal and how fast it was going at impact.
Yes, I know it "burst into flames", but the data may still be recoverable.
Yes, I know it "burst into flames", but the data may still be recoverable.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Newer mind my previous post. It could be a perfect storm non-ergonomic design: mislabeled and misleading shifter and non intuitive and not documented turn off button procedure. I guess some people will prefer to call it driver's error, but I would disagree.
Thanks for posting the link and especially the picture. I was in the "driver error" camp before, but I've changed my mind now. Unsafe shifter design combined with non-intuitive engine shut down procedure are the major culprits here. The floor mat just acts as the trigger on the whole mess.
Newer mind my previous post. It could be a perfect storm non-ergonomic design: mislabeled and misleading shifter and non intuitive and not documented turn off button procedure. I guess some people will prefer to call it driver's error, but I would disagree.
Thanks for posting the link and especially the picture. I was in the "driver error" camp before, but I've changed my mind now. Unsafe shifter design combined with non-intuitive engine shut down procedure are the major culprits here. The floor mat just acts as the trigger on the whole mess.
That picture of the ES350 shifter is just ridiculous. There is no reason to design a shifter like that for any reason other than the 'look at my slick luxury shifter' factor. What a joke! What a tragic joke in this case. Lexus should be punched in the pants for this design.
Yes, I can imagine the same thing happening to my parents, sister, and anyone else who drives an automatic that is not very car-savvy. Unlike us Bitogers, not everyone reads their car manuals from front to back... or is that just me?
Yes, I can imagine the same thing happening to my parents, sister, and anyone else who drives an automatic that is not very car-savvy. Unlike us Bitogers, not everyone reads their car manuals from front to back... or is that just me?
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