Toughness of braided brake lines

[inquirer]

I was doing a brake job (I changed the front pads and rotors of my Lancer) and while brushing one of the calipers, as I lifted it in order to brush the other side the Goodridge brake line I had installed, the hose formed a tight circle of a diameter of 0.4 - 0.8 inches close to its banjo fitting and it stayed at that position for a couple of minutes max.

1. Is the brake hose that flexible or is it possible it got some kind of damage like cracking etc.?
2. Is it possible that the connection of the banjo fitting with the hose got loose?

 

[DriveHard]

not a care in the world...

 

[FowVay]

So you turned the caliper 180º and it twisted the brake hose? That's a pretty tight radius but I know that many mechanics will actually use a tool to pinch the rubber brake line off so they can remove the caliper without losing the fluid and it seems to not cause any detrimental damage.

I think you'll be fine. Just watch it over the next few weeks to ensure no leakage at the hose-to-banjo interface.

 

[D60]

I refuse to run stainless lines. You discovered what no one wants to talk about because the marketing hype tells you they're superior.

I had an Earl's/Summit line blow a pinhole just sitting still standing on the pedal. Several other off-road friends also had problems (granted, these were all Earl's lines)

Rubber lines are incredibly resilient. Even after being noticeably stretched they hold together (although I wouldn't trust them). My very broke buddy is running around with too-short rubber hoses on his square body that I know he's stretched on my lift and the rubber is visibly cracking and they still work. I bought him new lines for Christmas and he still hasn't put them on.

I've seen entire Dana 60 fronts hang by only the rubber hoses (parting vehicles). Braided hoses can't take that kind of abuse.

I can't speak for track use but for trucks I will always find a way to run rubber hoses. They're readily available, inexpensive and tough. That's just me, YMMV

 

[Kira]

Is there truth that braided lines contribute to solid pedal feel and last longer?

 

[DriveHard]

Is there truth that braided lines contribute to solid pedal feel and last longer?

solid pedal feel = yes

 

[SHOZ]

I've had some braided lines on my Gen Coupe for quite a while. Not metal braiding but Kevlar I suppose, covered in clear vinyl of some sort. I don't like the cheap stainless they use and possibility of it corroding.

The braiding just stops the inner hose from expanding more over straight rubber.

 

[Jetronic]

Is there truth that braided lines contribute to solid pedal feel and last longer?

compared to old brake hoses maybe, but you can't see hoses in good condition expand

 

[GMBoy]

I refuse to run stainless lines. You discovered what no one wants to talk about because the marketing hype tells you they're superior.

I had an Earl's/Summit line blow a pinhole just sitting still standing on the pedal. Several other off-road friends also had problems (granted, these were all Earl's lines)

Rubber lines are incredibly resilient. Even after being noticeably stretched they hold together (although I wouldn't trust them). My very broke buddy is running around with too-short rubber hoses on his square body that I know he's stretched on my lift and the rubber is visibly cracking and they still work. I bought him new lines for Christmas and he still hasn't put them on.

I've seen entire Dana 60 fronts hang by only the rubber hoses (parting vehicles). Braided hoses can't take that kind of abuse.

I can't speak for track use but for trucks I will always find a way to run rubber hoses. They're readily available, inexpensive and tough. That's just me, YMMV

I agree I think it's more hype. Back in the day I replaced all my brake lines on my 78 CJ7 (still have it too) with braided stainless lines. They started leaking in the back where it goes across the axle in like 2 years time. The original old rubber one's never leaked after 25yrs when they were replaced.

 

[GMBoy]

Is there truth that braided lines contribute to solid pedal feel and last longer?

My 78 CJ7 has manual brakes so you can't get more road feel than that lol - when I installed all stainless braided lines the pedal was harder to push then with the rubber lines...i guess due to less flex/ballooning of the SS lines vs rubber. If i had to give a butt dyno estimate I would say about 15-20% harder pedal to push. I don't think you will notice that as much if at all with power brakes.

 

[shortyb]

"Braided" brake hoses are actually nylon tubing covered with the braid. Nylon tubing does not expand as much in theory, as reinforced rubber lines, however, they are not as flexible as the rubber ones. The braid (stainless or Kevlar) acts to protect the tubing and control the amount of flex. Bending in such a tight arc may have produced an internal kink that worked itself out over those few minutes, as the tubing is pretty resilient, and more than likely caused no lasting effect to flow or integrity. Banjo fitting are installed with huge amounts of pressure and go through burst testing before being sent out, so you should be good there. Look for leaks and feel for a mushy pedal. Do not hesitate to replace the line if you feel it has been compromised. Brakes cheap, wrecks not so much.

 

[inquirer]

not a care in the world

Thanks for your reply! I hope you are right!

So you turned the caliper 180º and it twisted the brake hose? That's a pretty tight radius but I know that many mechanics will actually use a tool to pinch the rubber brake line off so they can remove the caliper without losing the fluid and it seems to not cause any detrimental damage.

I think you'll be fine. Just watch it over the next few weeks to ensure no leakage at the hose-to-banjo interface.

Yeah, something like that. When I turned the caliper it happened for the hose to form a circle instead of twisting.

Is there truth that braided lines contribute to solid pedal feel and last longer?

In my case yes. I drive the car often on mountain roads and I overheat my brakes continuously. When they are overheated I can clearly feel the difference.

compared to old brake hoses maybe, but you can't see hoses in good condition expand

Compared to new TRW lines the Goodridge lines offer a firmer pedal, with shorter traveling distance. As I wrote above I overheat my brakes when I drive downhill regularly and in my case I can say there is definitely a difference.

"Braided" brake hoses are actually nylon tubing covered with the braid. Nylon tubing does not expand as much in theory, as reinforced rubber lines, however, they are not as flexible as the rubber ones. The braid (stainless or Kevlar) acts to protect the tubing and control the amount of flex. Bending in such a tight arc may have produced an internal kink that worked itself out over those few minutes, as the tubing is pretty resilient, and more than likely caused no lasting effect to flow or integrity. Banjo fitting are installed with huge amounts of pressure and go through burst testing before being sent out, so you should be good there. Look for leaks and feel for a mushy pedal. Do not hesitate to replace the line if you feel it has been compromised. Brakes cheap, wrecks not so much.

If I'm not mistaken Goodridge uses PTFE, not nylon.
The pedal feels fine. There are no any obvious signs of problems.

 

[slo town]

I was doing a brake job (I changed the front pads and rotors of my Lancer) and while brushing one of the calipers, as I lifted it in order to brush the other side the Goodridge brake line I had installed, the hose formed a tight circle of a diameter of 0.4 - 0.8 inches close to its banjo fitting and it stayed at that position for a couple of minutes max.

1. Is the brake hose that flexible or is it possible it got some kind of damage like cracking etc.?
2. Is it possible that the connection of the banjo fitting with the hose got loose?

The external diameter of the brake line is, what, about 1/4"? You say you bent/twisted it into a circle of 0.4 - 0.8 inches. If it was 0.4 inches (less than 1/2") you kinked the inner liner, probably permanently. The line literally got folded over on itself. I bet if you closely examined the brake line you'd see it was no longer perfectly round where it was bent. If it kinked to 0.8 inches maybe not, but it's still iffy.

I'd replace the line.

Scott

Edit: An essential practice - never ever (!!!) hang a brake caliper by its brake line, rubber or stainless. I'm not saying you did this, my comment is a generalized PSA.

 

[inquirer]

The external diameter of the brake line is, what, about 1/4"? You say you bent/twisted it into a circle of 0.4 - 0.8 inches. If it was 0.4 inches (less than 1/2") you kinked the inner liner, probably permanently. The line literally got folded over on itself. I bet if you closely examined the brake line you'd see it was no longer perfectly round where it was bent. If it kinked to 0.8 inches maybe not, but it's still iffy.

I'd replace the line.

Scott

Edit: An essential practice - never ever (!!!) hang a brake caliper by its brake line, rubber or stainless. I'm not saying you did this, my comment is a generalized PSA.

Well, have a look at the attached picture. The line folded in a circle as I have drawn and the diameter I refer to is the one represented by the red line.

 

[slo town]

I noticed after sending my post you had already put it back together. Don't take it back apart, but I would inspect the area where it got kinked. If you see a deformation of the roundness of the stainless steel braid, or the remnants of a kink, I'd replace it.

Scott

 

[TomYoung]

So you turned the caliper 180º and it twisted the brake hose? That's a pretty tight radius but I know that many mechanics will actually use a tool to pinch the rubber brake line off so they can remove the caliper without losing the fluid and it seems to not cause any detrimental damage.

I think you'll be fine. Just watch it over the next few weeks to ensure no leakage at the hose-to-banjo interface.

I have seen this also, but completely against mechanics treating flexible brake lines in this way. People forget that the brake lines are layered, technical components, and when they fail, the brakes fail. I don’t think the twist is that big a problem, but don’t dig it either. Treat brake lines with care.

 

[inquirer]

I noticed after sending my post you had already put it back together. Don't take it back apart, but I would inspect the area where it got kinked. If you see a deformation of the roundness of the stainless steel braid, or the remnants of a kink, I'd replace it.

Scott

There are no visible sings of wear, also nothing can be felt by hand externally. I was more worried about the integrity of the hose itself though (for example the formation of a stricture), I'm not sure if examining the stainless steel is that useful.

I have seen this also, but completely against mechanics treating flexible brake lines in this way. People forget that the brake lines are layered, technical components, and when they fail, the brakes fail. I don’t think the twist is that big a problem, but don’t dig it either. Treat brake lines with care.

Well, it happened once, but I hope with no consequences.

 

[Dave9]

How expensive is a replacement hose? It is a lot easier for me to spend your money and tell you to replace it, because it didn't cost me anything.

It's probably fine. That last few % of maybe not fine, plus that it's brakes, plus that you "drive the car often on mountain roads and I overheat my brakes continuously", makes me think that you shouldn't gamble on any brake parts. It also makes me think that you need a different vehicle with better brakes.

 

[slo town]

There are no visible sings of wear, also nothing can be felt by hand externally. I was more worried about the integrity of the hose itself though (for example the formation of a stricture), I'm not sure if examining the stainless steel is that useful.

The stainless steel sheath is there to keep the inner PTFE tube from swelling up or exploding.

What I'm saying is that if you kinked the hose severely enough, the stainless steel braiding will deform. Imagine a piece of stainless steel brake line hose. Forcefully bend it completely in half and pinch the bend tightly together. Even though it's a "high performance stainless steel brake line" it will not snap back into its original shape. Not only will the stainless steel sheath on the outside deform if bent far enough, so will the PTFE inner liner. It is damage to the PTFE inner liner that is the primary concern.

I have stainless steel brake lines on both my BMWs, so I like them and buy them. But they are not immune from damage. For example hanging a brake caliper off them can damage them just as much as rubber brake lines (I'm not saying you did this).

One last thing, the reason stainless steel brakes lines are covered with a plastic outer covering is so that dust and dirt does not work its way under the stainless steel braid and chafe the PTFE liner. High quality stainless steel brake lines, the ones suitable for street use, will always have this outer plastic layer.

Scott

 

[inquirer]

How expensive is a replacement hose? It is a lot easier for me to spend your money and tell you to replace it, because it didn't cost me anything.

It's probably fine. That last few % of maybe not fine, plus that it's brakes, plus that you "drive the car often on mountain roads and I overheat my brakes continuously", makes me think that you shouldn't gamble on any brake parts. It also makes me think that you need a different vehicle with better brakes.

The lines were ordered and custom made by a Goodridge G-Tech Centre abroad, so production and delivery would take a a couple of weeks. I'm not sure how much 1 front line costs, but the set of 6 needed for the Lancer costed about $220.

Even I often abuse my brakes at the point the pads smell and a couple of times smoke comes out of them, I never felt any fade or similar issues, except of fast wear of the rotors and pads of course. There are no any upgrade brake kits for my car, if they were available I may considered installing one. Also even the Ralliart Lancer which is much faster uses the same rotors, pads and calipers with my car, so there is not possible to swap them with the ones of a another Lancer. The exception is the Evo which uses bigger ones, but unfortunately they can't fit.

The stainless steel sheath is there to keep the inner PTFE tube from swelling up or exploding.

What I'm saying is that if you kinked the hose severely enough, the stainless steel braiding will deform. Imagine a piece of stainless steel brake line hose. Forcefully bend it completely in half and pinch the bend tightly together. Even though it's a "high performance stainless steel brake line" it will not snap back into its original shape. Not only will the stainless steel sheath on the outside deform if bent far enough, so will the PTFE inner liner. It is damage to the PTFE inner liner that is the primary concern.

I have stainless steel brake lines on both my BMWs, so I like them and buy them. But they are not immune from damage. For example hanging a brake caliper off them can damage them just as much as rubber brake lines (I'm not saying you did this).

One last thing, the reason stainless steel brakes lines are covered with a plastic outer covering is so that dust and dirt does not work its way under the stainless steel braid and chafe the PTFE liner. High quality stainless steel brake lines, the ones suitable for street use, will always have this outer plastic layer.

Scott

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm mostly concerned for the PTFE line acquiring a weak spot or a stricture. As I said externally there are no visible or felt signs of wear or leaks.

By the way, with the braided lines there was 100% even wear of the pads both in the same caliper and comparing one front caliper with the other. If I remember right, with ordinary lines I had never experienced perfectly even wear. Of course if a stricture has formed that will be obvious during the next brake pads change.