tolls, taxes and other thoughts

[jaj]

The problem now facing all levels of government is that they have to balance the high cost of continuing to build new roads with the rapidly climbing cost of keeping the existing ones viable after forty years where the vast road network built in the 40's, 50's and 60's didn't need or get a lot of repair.

From an economic standpoing, when the road network was first built it created new capacity that contributed to the growth and development of society. Maintenance, which almost amounts to rebuilding that which was built before, doesn't make nearly the same contribution, even though it costs as much or more.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Loobed

They recently raised the toll to pay for the biggest money pit in US public works history: The Oakland-San Francisco Bay Bridge.



If they didn't force their way to include Yerba Buena Island or those activists didn't try to block all the stuff with every kind of lawsuits it would have been done by now.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
The problem I have with toll paid road vs fuel paid road is the amount of usage.

In toll road you'll have low utilization as the goal to maximize profit is not always matching the goal to reduce traffic. So you have 2 lane toll road with semi congested traffic when the local roads are packed to the gill. There is no incentive to build 1 more lane because market research shows that you will not make profit doing so.

The worst? Most toll road have non competing clause that prevent government from build a parallel road or expanding or improving existing congested local highway.

Private sector for the win.


Yeah, down here, they auction out the rights to build the toll roads to the highest bidder, who gets to build it, and charge to use it.

Usually the offers have clauses requiring closure, or part closure of alternate routes, creation of one way roads etc. to either inconvenience people not willing to pay the toll, or to funnel then down it regardless...if you don't have the RFID pass, it costs an extra couple of bucks to pay online within 24 hours, or an extra $9 after 24 hours.

We're smart like that...we even sold the State Lottery in last year's fire sales.

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

I think my original point really was when the fees/tolls are raised for a said purpose there should be a detailed list of the expected expenditures. After, there should be a detailed accounting of where the was spent.

It would just make me feel warm and fuzzy.

 

[Shannow]

Agree who9leheartedly.

Oz had a lottery for the harbour bridge as a stand alone discrete item. When the bridge was paid for the lottery was done for...When a toll road is paid off, it should return to free status.

Seen a toll road handed back once, just recently with Sydney's M4. The contracted period for the company raking in the tolls was up, so the handed it back....left the toll booths in the road as a giant chicane.

 

[OilNerd]

Originally Posted By: GROUCHO MARX
I think my original point really was when the fees/tolls are raised for a said purpose there should be a detailed list of the expected expenditures. After, there should be a detailed accounting of where the was spent.

It would just make me feel warm and fuzzy.


Tell the public what the increase will be used for?!? OK, now I know you don't live in NY!

As for the money spent, PANYNJ budgets and capital plans are public documents. Knock yourself out:

PANYNJ Budgets

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

I got through the first 14 pages of the 2010 budget and I noticed two directly contradicting statements.

1. The PA was negatively affected by lower interest rates in their issuance of debt.

2. The PA was negatively affected by lower interest rates in investing their money.

The PA wants a high return on investing and a low cost on borrowing. Whom do they think they are, a bailed out bank or financial institution?

Also, usage of the bridges and tunnels was down. No mention that dcreased usage leads to lower variable costs.

At the GW bridge on Sunday nights, the lower level accepts E-Z pass only. Those EZ pass readers never call in sick, never take a paid vacation, and don't get a pension that they can swell by loading the overtime the last couple of years of employment.

It seems that the more the tolls are raised and put people on the mass transit systems, the more the mass transit systems need the tolls to be raised.

I also noticed that the PA airports had fewer flights in and out. Why don't the airline passengers pick up the costs for fewer flights or capital improvements? The end users should pay for use, but this does not happen in this U.S.A.

I'll take the comment that I couldn't be from NY as sarcastic, but isn't Plattsburgh some party college town?

I formerly prepared financial gibberish such as this, it doesn't surprise me.

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: jaj
The problem now facing all levels of government is that they have to balance the high cost of continuing to build new roads with the rapidly climbing cost of keeping the existing ones viable after forty years where the vast road network built in the 40's, 50's and 60's didn't need or get a lot of repair.

From an economic standpoing, when the road network was first built it created new capacity that contributed to the growth and development of society. Maintenance, which almost amounts to rebuilding that which was built before, doesn't make nearly the same contribution, even though it costs as much or more.



I don't understand how we can afford to build roads and bridges in other countries and yet we can't afford the upkeep of our own.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: pbm

I don't understand how we can afford to build roads and bridges in other countries and yet we can't afford the upkeep of our own.


Because the "we" squabbles over jurisdiction, even if it's many faces of the same "we".

Look at the tunnel they almost made between NY and NJ. NJ got out.

If the feds stepped in and fixed some 70 year old local bridge, it would be a moral hazard as the state "didn't maintain it properly". If states DO maintain their bridges, they might not collapse during floods and get rebuilt with "disaster relief" money. At some point in this someone would mention highways aren't in the Constitution.

When we build junk overseas, there's only one layer of red tape.

 

[jaj]

Originally Posted By: pbm
I don't understand how we can afford to build roads and bridges in other countries and yet we can't afford the upkeep of our own.


It's actually simpler than it looks and it's actually a good thing when it happens, provided you set aside political issues, which is wise on this forum in any case.

First, the bridge is built using American money to pay Americans to design it and build it. Most of the money spent abroad as "aid" is actually spent on jobs at home.

Second, the receiving country often agrees to repay the government for the cost of the new infrastructure, or it might provide favorable terms in return for exports (oil, minerals, etc). It might take Uncle Sam 100 years to get the money back, and the interest rate will be microscopic, but nations can afford to play the long game.

 

[PandaBear]

It is very expensive to tear down an existing bridge in a big city then build a replacement without affecting traffic. Building a bridge in the middle of nowhere is cheap.

Building a new bridge in the middle of Arizona may only cost 1/20 of building a replacement suspension bridge between NY and NJ or replacing the Golden Gate Bridge, and it has nothing to do with regulation or politics.

It is also very expensive to have a "why don't everyone just buy their own car and drive" vs building and keeping the subway working in a large metropolitan. For one there will be no space to park or drive if public transit for 7 Million people suddenly stop working. For two it is not the car or fuel that is expensive, it is the parking spot and the traffic jam that is expensive to drive. You can be so rich that you can afford to buy a Ferrari or get it for free, and you'll still be taking public transit in such a large city.

 

[OilNerd]

Originally Posted By: GROUCHO MARX
I'll take the comment that I couldn't be from NY as sarcastic, but isn't Plattsburgh some party college town?

I knew you'd pick up on the sarcasm. But being from the City, you must know, by now, the the way things are done in NYC and NYS, and explaining to the public how their funds are going to be put to good use ain't it. That's why the PA crammed all the toll hike hearings into one day, at various inconvenient locations, during the workday, with most PA board members not in attendance.

And, yes, we have quite a few college students here who like to party.

BTW, I thought you'd find this blurb interesting: AAA Calls on Feds to Stop Port Authority Toll Hikes

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

I heard about the Auto Club's action on the radio. Makes my membership the best money I've spent this year.

 

[OilNerd]

I know how you feel. The round trip tolls between my sisters in Jersey and Brooklyn are over $20. MTA stiffs Jersey E-Z Pass tagholders on the E-Z Pass discount, so I sent my sister in Jersey a NYS Thruway tag to make things a little cheaper. Now she gets stiffed by the NJTP on their discount -- you can't win. At least she's not paying a monthly fee ...for now.

I'm glad I only have to pay those tolls a couple times a year.

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

It's nice to see someone thinks our elected officials should follow the law.

Unlike in NYC where the voters voted twice for term limits in referendums and had their will usurped by a corrupt mayor and city council.

 

[sentra]

Originally Posted By: GROUCHO MARX
I got through the first 14 pages of the 2010 budget and I noticed two directly contradicting statements.

1. The PA was negatively affected by lower interest rates in their issuance of debt.

2. The PA was negatively affected by lower interest rates in investing their money.

The PA wants a high return on investing and a low cost on borrowing. Whom do they think they are, a bailed out bank or financial institution?



The two statements are not contradictory at all. The first states that the Port Authority is having difficulty raising funds by borrowing from bondholders, because the interest rate offered by the PA is not attractive enough for prospective bondholders to lend PA the money.

Interest rates offered by the PA are low because of its excellent credit rating, and the reason for PA’s enviable credit rating is obvious. The second statement is self-explanatory.

 

[sentra]

On another note, in additon to the previous financial support from the state and federal governments, the PA probably will seek more financial assitance from them during the construction of the "Freedom Tower," another would-be cash cow.

I am still somewhat surprised that the PA issued bonds to finance that tower. It would have been stupidly easy to have ordinary Americans, or even people around the world, pay for the project by launching a "celebrate your freedom" fundraising drive.

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

Yes, they have a low cost of boorrowing. Lower than they could or should have expected when they were budgeting. They list this as a reason for a shortfall in the budget.

So the answer is for the Federal Reserve bank to raise interest rates on U.S. Treasuries. I'm all for it. At this time, people cannot get enough of low paying U.S. Treasuries (about 2.00% for 10 years). There is no way that the PA coupon is less than that. Even if interest rates were to rise, which won't happen for 2 years according to the fed, the PA will always pay more than than U.S. T-Bonds.

They should raise the rate until the bond sells. That's business.

 

[OilNerd]

Quote:
1. The PA was negatively affected by lower interest rates in their issuance of debt.


This could also be a veiled reference to a soured derivatives deal the PA made a few years ago, betting on higher interest rates: Port Authority Losing Millions on Swaps

 

[morris]

in kansas of course you must have car insurance, but if you drive your friends car it has to have insurance, AND you have to have insurance in addition to your friends insurance, even if you dont have a car. its a money thing, course