tolls, taxes and other thoughts

[GROUCHO MARX]

I just read an internet post where the poster estimated that 344 million dollars were collected each year at the George Washington Bridge. The Holland and Lincoln Tunnels also connect New Jersey to New York.

The Governors of both states have agreed to raise these tolls by substantial amounts to pay for "infrastructure".

These tolls paid for the bridges and tunnels years ago. The subsequent tolls should have paid for all the maintenence and improvements along with the taxes on gasoline and diesel fuels, not to mention registration fees, and traffic fines.


When someone asks me for a buck, I generally want to know what they spent it on before I give them another buck. Am I strange to behave this way?

 

[motorguy222]

You are not strange.

 

[OilNerd]

MTA and the Port Authority of NY/NJ use the tolls as their cash cow to subsidize other loss-making operations -- mass transit for MTA, WTC rebuilding, PA bus terminal, etc. for PANYNJ.

Now you know -- hand over the buck!

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: motorguy222
You are not strange.


You've been here over 7 years, know Groucho for that long and still have that comment??

You guys are killing me!

 

[motorguy222]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
You are not strange.


You've been here over 7 years, know Groucho for that long and still have that comment??

You guys are killing me!

Well,what else do you expect from him? After a while,the strange is his normal.

 

[PandaBear]

But you have to remember bridges and tunnels don't last forever and also is a monopoly. They are just acting like a business that's efficient (maximize profit), and use the money elsewhere (or offset the gas tax to fund other stuff).

As long as there's land shortage on the other side, they'll keep the rate high.

We have some $4 and $5 bridge toll here in the bay area, consider yourself lucky.

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
But you have to remember bridges and tunnels don't last forever and also is a monopoly. They are just acting like a business that's efficient (maximize profit), and use the money elsewhere (or offset the gas tax to fund other stuff).

As long as there's land shortage on the other side, they'll keep the rate high.

We have some $4 and $5 bridge toll here in the bay area, consider yourself lucky.



The GW Bridge toll is currently $8.
They tried to raise it to $15 but it's 'only' going to $9.50 this year and then up 75 cents a year until it gets to $14 I think.
The Port Authority of NY and NJ is rebuilding the World Trade Center (which they own...go figure) on the backs of working people who use the bridge.
They also pay their security guards....aka PA Police, as if they were brain surgeons....with most making well over $150K a year...go figure again..

 

[Shannow]

Surely the insurance would have covered...oh wait.

 

[sciphi]

The heck with them, I'm not about to visit NYC anytime soon. Even though my tax receipts are going to subsidize those bridges and transit systems. The joys of living in NY...

 

[Pablo]

It's for all those NEW shovel ready jobs. Because it worked so well last time.

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: GROUCHO MARX
I just read an internet post where the poster estimated that 344 million dollars were collected each year at the George Washington Bridge. The Holland and Lincoln Tunnels also connect New Jersey to New York.

The Governors of both states have agreed to raise these tolls by substantial amounts to pay for "infrastructure".

These tolls paid for the bridges and tunnels years ago. The subsequent tolls should have paid for all the maintenence and improvements along with the taxes on gasoline and diesel fuels, not to mention registration fees, and traffic fines.


When someone asks me for a buck, I generally want to know what they spent it on before I give them another buck. Am I strange to behave this way?


You are not strange but remember that those fees go to a common bucket for infrastructure projects. They pay for the maintenance of the streets that are free to use.

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
You are not strange.


You've been here over 7 years, know Groucho for that long and still have that comment??

You guys are killing me!

Bill, thanks, I needed that.

 

[Schmoe]

If you live here in Oklahoma, tolls are a way of life. When they were built back in the 60's I think, the deal was that they would charge tolls until the construction cost was paid off. Yeah, right. They are still charging. I think I paid a total of 1200 dollars on tolls last year alone.

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

BTW, PBM didn't mention that the bridges connecting Queens and Staten Island to the other Boroughs are 12 bucks.

The money is going to the mass transit system. The subway is a bargain. I have no problem with that.

The problem is that the MTA and Port Authority of NY & NJ with many high paying political patronage, unproductive jobs. It will also go to building the WTC. The insurance on the WTC? It was paid and the guy who got the money had no intention of every being a part of the rebuilding. Smart guy.

Many people who drive across this country never see a toll. They ride some of the finest roads in this country. This is the reason for my query.

If you trust the government to do with this money what the money was intended for, I have a social security trust fund to sell you.

 

[PandaBear]

Those places with no / low toll usually have higher tax elsewhere (sales or property or income), and that's how they are paid for.

I've live in places with low sales tax (3%), low income tax, and low property tax, and the road is ... wait, what road.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: GROUCHO MARX
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: motorguy222
You are not strange.


You've been here over 7 years, know Groucho for that long and still have that comment??

You guys are killing me!

Bill, thanks, I needed that.


Love ya man!

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Schmoe
If you live here in Oklahoma, tolls are a way of life. When they were built back in the 60's I think, the deal was that they would charge tolls until the construction cost was paid off. Yeah, right. They are still charging. I think I paid a total of 1200 dollars on tolls last year alone.


When I lived in OK (and TX) back in the 80's there were almost no toll roads. I went back there a few years ago and there were tolls on basically all the interstates. I hate toll roads. Although I have to say the back roads around OK were much better than they were in 80's. I can't say this is or isn't because of the tolls. I would say it is not because of the tolls. One bright side is OK got my money to use its highways even though I was just passing through. But I still think tolls suck and are inconvenient for the low income people living there.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
But you have to remember bridges and tunnels don't last forever and also is a monopoly. They are just acting like a business that's efficient (maximize profit), and use the money elsewhere (or offset the gas tax to fund other stuff).

As long as there's land shortage on the other side, they'll keep the rate high.

We have some $4 and $5 bridge toll here in the bay area, consider yourself lucky.


You're right, tolls are just the public sector acting like the private sector and making everyone pay as they go regardless of ability and are seeking to turn a profit. This philosophy is gaining ground nowadays and use to be not as common. The next step is to privatize the roadways so a private person can make a profit and do whatever they want with it! I get the feeling that some of the people who complain about public toll ways would have no complaint if the same toll way was privately owned lol.

 

[PandaBear]

The problem I have with toll paid road vs fuel paid road is the amount of usage.

In toll road you'll have low utilization as the goal to maximize profit is not always matching the goal to reduce traffic. So you have 2 lane toll road with semi congested traffic when the local roads are packed to the gill. There is no incentive to build 1 more lane because market research shows that you will not make profit doing so.

The worst? Most toll road have non competing clause that prevent government from build a parallel road or expanding or improving existing congested local highway.

Private sector for the win.

 

[Loobed]

They have the same thing here with bridge tolls. They originally said they would charge toll until the bridge was paid for. It has been paid off for 30 years. At first they claimed they wanted to keep the toll, so they could pay the people working in the toll booth (if they got rid of the toll, they wouldn't need toll takers). They then claimed they would raise the fare, to discourage driving and encourage the use of public transportation (blowing up the bridge would be easier). They recently raised the toll to pay for the biggest money pit in US public works history: The Oakland-San Francisco Bay Bridge.