Toilet shopping - regular vs pressure-assist

[mclasser]

While shopping for a new master bath toilet, I came across these newer pressure-assisted toilets. The fact that they use little water and mainly rely on pressure is interesting. But some questions:

- Is pressure-assist really all that it's hyped up to be?
- Reliability? Seems like there's more stuff that can go wrong versus a regular toilet that needs an occasional cheap flapper, fill valve, etc.
- Recommended brands? I see American Standard has one for under $300.

I'm also looking at a conventional American Standard Cadet 3. Seems like a no nonsense workhorse for a fair price. I've heard that big box stores like Lowes & HD receive toilets with irregularities from the manufacturer. Is this true?

This is my first time toilet shopping so I appreciate the help!

 

[wpod]

More to go wrong with a pressure assist.

 

[csandste]

Twenty years ago when low water use toilets didn't work there was a lot of talk about these things. Now efficient toilets that work can be had for a hundred bucks. Don't think I'd bother. You occasionally see them in C-stores. Haven't looked seriously at one in more than a decade but at that time they were pretty noisy for a family.

 

[mattwithcats]

The pressure assist ones are noisy

I have a 1.6 gallons per flush plain old Kohler, very happy

1.2’s do exist now

 

[ecotourist]

I have a Toto. It uses very little water, and doesn't have pressure flush, but it cleans the bowl without it.

 

[Pelican]

Years ago whe I was replacing my toilets I did a study and found that the one with the least problems and using a small amount of water was the dual flush Caroma, an australian product and australians know all about water shortages, also they have the biggest throat so that if you are a high roughage family no change of plugging it.

 

[walterjay]

Stay away from pressure assist toilets. Virtually everyone whom I know that has one has experienced problems with them. I recommend a Kohler Wellworth toilet that uses 1.25 gallon per flush. Affordble, reliable and very water friendly.

 

[y_p_w]

The pressure vessel can leak. Or do this:

They don't really require any power or any kind of special setup like with a flushometer. There has to be sufficient water pressure to create the pressure in the vessel. When they work, they're great - almost as effective as a flushometer. When they fail.......

I'd really recommend a good 1.28 gpf toilet. The secret is a wider, fully glazed trap and a wide (3") flapper. We've got a couple of American Standard Cadet 3 toilets, but I understand the Toto Drake and Kohler Wentworth are fairly similar. I wouldn't say it's clog proof, but it takes a lot to get it to clog and it's fairly easy to unclog it with just water from a bucket. We replaced a couple of toilets older than myself - maybe about 5 gallons or more each. I found with a with a narrow trap/flapper and that much water, if it stopped up it would just overflow the bowl and I'd have to whip out the gloves.

 

[bunnspecial]

Put in an American Standard Champion 4 back in July to replace an ancient 4-bolt 5 gallon affair that couldn't flush anything to save its life(1953 date on the bowl lid, which is about when the house was built).

Despite being a "conventional" 1.6 gallon toilet, it flushes pretty aggressively and I've yet to see it leave anything behind. When a conventional toilet flushes that well, it's hard to make a case for anything with more to go wrong.

$200 at Lowes. The salesman, for what its worth, recommended it and said that in the past year he'd sold as many of those as he had all their other ASs put together and that it was probably the single most popular model they carried.

 

[ulflyer]

Take a look at a Jacuzzi two button push type at Lowes. Under $200 year and half ago and its never failed to flush everything down. One piece, looks nice. Highly recommend it.

 

[y_p_w]

Put in an American Standard Champion 4 back in July to replace an ancient 4-bolt 5 gallon affair that couldn't flush anything to save its life(1953 date on the bowl lid, which is about when the house was built).

Despite being a "conventional" 1.6 gallon toilet, it flushes pretty aggressively and I've yet to see it leave anything behind. When a conventional toilet flushes that well, it's hard to make a case for anything with more to go wrong.

$200 at Lowes. The salesman, for what its worth, recommended it and said that in the past year he'd sold as many of those as he had all their other ASs put together and that it was probably the single most popular model they carried.

I thought that a lot of toilets are chosen because of rebates, and that they had to be "WaterSense" certified, which starts at 1.28 gpf. I saw some rebate forms that had a bigger rebate for 1.1 gpf or less. I think the Champion 4 does come in a 1.28 gpf version.

However, the flush is actually adjustable. I used to see the toilet bowl have a marking that said that it was 1.6 gpf, but these days they're not marked at all. On mine, it's maybe a 2.5-3 gallon tank if drained all the way. However, it's designed to only put out 1.28 gpf with the default flapper setting. There's a label on the tank lid with information on parts to order for different requirements. The 1.6 gpf version uses the same flapper but specifies a different flush valve.

 

[Wolf359]

The pressure vessel can leak. Or do this:

They don't really require any power or any kind of special setup like with a flushometer. There has to be sufficient water pressure to create the pressure in the vessel. When they work, they're great - almost as effective as a flushometer. When they fail.......

I'd really recommend a good 1.28 gpf toilet. The secret is a wider, fully glazed trap and a wide (3") flapper. We've got a couple of American Standard Cadet 3 toilets, but I understand the Toto Drake and Kohler Wentworth are fairly similar. I wouldn't say it's clog proof, but it takes a lot to get it to clog and it's fairly easy to unclog it with just water from a bucket. We replaced a couple of toilets older than myself - maybe about 5 gallons or more each. I found with a with a narrow trap/flapper and that much water, if it stopped up it would just overflow the bowl and I'd have to whip out the gloves.

The American Standard Cadet 3 is my standard toilet I use on my rentals. It's $120 at Home Depot. I used to like Kohler, but they use a canister flush system and those parts are not at home depot. The Cadet 3 uses the regular fluid master fill and flush valve so parts are easy to get. Seems like every 5 years or so I'm replacing some toilet part. Toto is a nice toilet, around $250 or so. Pressure assist is a little overkill, I'm not sure how you repair them aside from replacing the tank and some have been recalled because the tank explodes. You never hear of a regular toilet exploding.

 

[PandaBear]

I have both and I'd pick the pressure assist one away from the bedroom (it is loud), and use it for #2 whenever possible. The sloan flushmate I used had a few recall, first about the seam crack that may explode, to the second that still crack and explode so they use a smaller tank with a metal strap that reinforce it. Mine didn't explode but it does sound a bit scary. If you are concerned don't use it, but to me it is water leaking out before anything might happen. The replacement cartridge is a bit more expensive than the flushing flap other model uses, like $30-50 each and last me about 5-10 years. Installation is slightly more complicated but still in the DIY range.

I repeat, don't install it next to a bedroom, it is loud.

 

[y_p_w]

The American Standard Cadet 3 is my standard toilet I use on my rentals. It's $120 at Home Depot. I used to like Kohler, but they use a canister flush system and those parts are not at home depot. The Cadet 3 uses the regular fluid master fill and flush valve so parts are easy to get. Seems like every 5 years or so I'm replacing some toilet part. Toto is a nice toilet, around $250 or so. Pressure assist is a little overkill, I'm not sure how you repair them aside from replacing the tank and some have been recalled because the tank explodes. You never hear of a regular toilet exploding.

I think the Cadet 3 comes in different versions with different flush mechanisms. One seems to be an AS exclusive mechanism.

404

www.americanstandard-us.com

The Fluidmaster flapper is something they've been doing for a while. Years ago I replaced a bad 2" flapper with one of the rigid Fluidmaster flappers that was a direct, universal fit. However, the 3" one is a bit hard to find, except at Home Depot. That's the same flapper that Home Depot uses in some of their house brand toilets, and I saw the instructions that stated it had some settings for a Cadet 3.

404

www.americanstandard-us.com

AS does sell that separately, but I'm not sure who else sells it.

404

www.americanstandard-us.com

But Home Depot does sell it, but only ship to store/home.

American Standard Series 540 A 3 in. Toilet Tank Flapper 7381193-200.0070A - The Home Depot

www.homedepot.com

I've seen this sold in a store though. It's a little more expensive, but at least it's sold in stores and doesn't require a special order.

Fluidmaster Universal 3 in. Adjustable Toilet Flapper for Glacier Bay Toilets 5401GBP4 - The Home Depot

The Fluidmaster 5401GBP4 3 in. Toilet Tank Flapper for Glacier Bay is built to last. Solid construction from corrosion resistant materials and the durable silicone seal promote long life and lasting performance.

www.homedepot.com

The flappers should last though. What I'd really like to see would be just a replacement for the silicone gasket. After almost 8 years the plastic part of the flapper is fine. The silicone hasn't leaked, but I could imagine that it could get pitted over time.

 

[boom10ful]

Stay away from Niagara Conservation toilets. Used to own one and it took multiple tries to flush solids. The "vacuum assist" also kept plugging up and required frequent cleaning of the vacuum chamber port. Replaced with a Toto and it's light years better!

 

[mclasser]

I have both and I'd pick the pressure assist one away from the bedroom (it is loud), and use it for #2 whenever possible. The sloan flushmate I used had a few recall, first about the seam crack that may explode, to the second that still crack and explode so they use a smaller tank with a metal strap that reinforce it. Mine didn't explode but it does sound a bit scary. If you are concerned don't use it, but to me it is water leaking out before anything might happen. The replacement cartridge is a bit more expensive than the flushing flap other model uses, like $30-50 each and last me about 5-10 years. Installation is slightly more complicated but still in the DIY range.

I repeat, don't install it next to a bedroom, it is loud.

I heard about some of those exploding; not too confidence-inspiring! There's also the noise you mentioned. My master bath is right next to the bedroom and I don't want late night commode sessions drawing a lot of attention

I'm leaning towards the Cadet 3 now, on sale at HD for $159. Have you guys encountered QC issues with toilets from big box stores? Plumbing forums say manufacturers often send their factory seconds there. Particularly with the Cadet 3, you may get wobbly bowls, poor finishing and cracks. Some guys had to go back several times before they got a non-defective one.

 

[greenjp]

I'm leaning towards the Cadet 3 now, on sale at HD for $159. Have you guys encountered QC issues with toilets from big box stores? Plumbing forums say manufacturers often send their factory seconds there. Particularly with the Cadet 3, you may get wobbly bowls, poor finishing and cracks. Some guys had to go back several times before they got a non-defective one.

Funny I'm also planning to get a Cadet 3 for a bathroom remodel I'm starting up. Seems to be a good price/performance value, and the styling is inoffensive.

With respect to the plumbing forum guys, that is exactly the kind of nonsense you would hear from from someone wanting to steer you away from DIY and towards hiring it out. What does Lowes or HD have to gain by taking "seconds" and dealing with extra returns and disgruntled customers? I do believe the big box stores may specify certain product configurations/model numbers/packaging for some products, but never the conspiracy theory that they're somehow passing along "seconds".

jeff

 

[y_p_w]

I heard about some of those exploding; not too confidence-inspiring! There's also the noise you mentioned. My master bath is right next to the bedroom and I don't want late night commode sessions drawing a lot of attention

I'm leaning towards the Cadet 3 now, on sale at HD for $159. Have you guys encountered QC issues with toilets from big box stores? Plumbing forums say manufacturers often send their factory seconds there. Particularly with the Cadet 3, you may get wobbly bowls, poor finishing and cracks. Some guys had to go back several times before they got a non-defective one.

I've had about 5 of them for different applications. I haven't seen an issue, but who knows when there are millions of these sold. I will say that all the porcelain for mine were made in Mexico. Not sure if that matters to you.

I've certainly heard of plumbers claiming that there were different "grades" where they might use the lowest grade as the specials and highest grade only available at plumbing supply businesses.

Mine is the version with the Fluidmaster 540 flapper and a Fluidmaster 400A fill valve. The flapper isn't found everywhere, but easy enough to replace if you need it. That fill valve is ubiquitous. If you want to hot rod it, you might replace the valve with the PerforMax version or with a Korky/Lavelle QuietFill Platinum. Those have adjustable bowl fill mechanisms. I didn't use either, but did replace the fill tube with Fluidmaster's adjustable fill tube with the pinch roller mechanism.

 

[y_p_w]

Funny I'm also planning to get a Cadet 3 for a bathroom remodel I'm starting up. Seems to be a good price/performance value, and the styling is inoffensive.

With respect to the plumbing forum guys, that is exactly the kind of nonsense you would hear from from someone wanting to steer you away from DIY and towards hiring it out. What does Lowes or HD have to gain by taking "seconds" and dealing with extra returns and disgruntled customers? I do believe the big box stores may specify certain product configurations/model numbers/packaging for some products, but never the conspiracy theory that they're somehow passing along "seconds".

jeff

The big box stores have exclusives. The kit I got was supposedly a Home Depot exclusive with tank/bowl, slow close seat, and a wax ring included.

I will say that the only "problems" I've had were with the American Standard slow close lid. I've ended up replacing them when the hinge mechanism would no longer close by itself via gravity. The original one lasted several years I got a replacement at Home Depot. It sort of works, but after a few months it stays stuck in place unless it's forced down to maybe less than 20 degrees. The newer ones are made in China while I think the older ones were made in the US. If it's time to replace, maybe one from Kohler or Bemis might make sense. I do like the idea of a slow close seat because I've heard of broken bowls - especially from heavy wooden seats being dropped.

 

[Imp4]

Another upvote for the Cadet 3.
I've installed a few in my house and another at my mother's.
They will flush nearly anything that is reasonable and do it the first time. I don't think I've ever had to take a plunger to one of them.

The fact that they're $120 at HD is icing on the cake.