Toilet fill valve replacement/modification

[y_p_w]

Well - over the weekend my dad asked me to fix the toilet at my parents house. Over the years I've helped them replace the parts that were failing, and in those case we spent a small fortune on OEM Kohler parts (for Rialto and Rosario toilets) that may have been overpriced. Two of them were failing and I bought them some OEM parts from Amazon that were maybe $20 or $35, because I wasn't sure what else would work.

I have no idea who replaced it (it wasn't me) but there was a Korky QuietFill fill valve installed (I didn't do it) in their bedroom bathroom toilet. I helped my dad with it a couple of months ago and it was really, really set with the height too low. I think it was probably a plumber they work with, but my dad didn't even remember that it was fixed. It also needed a new flapper (which are pretty expensive because they're an unusual part) but my mom found one that I bought years ago for them as a spare. But recently it was leaking out the bottom and I noticed that the threads at the fill tube were worn. The QuietFill seems to be the only universal fill valve that works properly in a low-profile toilet, although the location is way in the corner and it sort of presses against the side of the tank.

My dad ended up buying a Korky QuietFill kit with a 2" flapper (not really needed but he said it was the same price) but I said maybe he should have gotten the QuietFill Platinum with the adjustable fill level. So we got in his car and went to HD to get one and he'd return the other one later. This one has a simple knob that adjusts the fill speed to reduce water waste. I was easy enough to install and adjust, although I initially placed on the nut incorrectly.

Made me wonder about what I could do to save some water at my place. We have two American Standard Cadet 3 1.28 gif toilets, which contain a common Fluidmaster 400A fill valve that's been pretty solid over the years. We had our 50 year old toilets replaced because they were literally plugging up, and these new ones weren't impossible to plug up but rarely did, showing that good design works wonders with less water. They've been pretty solid over the years, but the fill valve is just a tube that can't be adjusted. So I went to HD to see if they had a roller clamp like the one that comes with the 400AH "PerforMax" version.

https://www.fluidmaster.com/products/toilet/fill-valves/215-water-saving-roller-clamp-refill-tube/

I've installed it, but I'm wonder if it was really worth it. The fill level looks to be the same as with an unrestricted bowl fill.

 

[DBMaster]

1.28 gpf is already the lowest water use toilet commonly available. My house has 1.6 gpf models due to being built in the 90s. Before that, it wasn't uncommon to find 3.5 or even 5 gallon models.

I's not sure you would get adequate bowl cleaning or enough water to push waste a good distance down the drain line with less than 1.28 gallons. It'd be interesting to hear if you figure something out.

 

[doitmyself]

After a flush, that roller clamp tube controls the amount of water to refill the BOWL, not the tank. The 400A has separate adjustments to control the TANK fill level.

After a flush, while the tank is filling, water is going through that small tube to fill the bowl. Once the bowl reaches is highest possible level, any additional water just flows into the trapway and down the drain. That roller clamp is adjusted so the amount of water to fill the BOWL is timed that it reaches its highest level at about the same time the tank fill shuts off. This eliminates the extra water into the bowl that ends up going down the drain.

Again, you want the bowl to reach maximum fill at the same time the tank fill shuts off. Hope this makes sense.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: DBMaster
1.28 gpf is already the lowest water use toilet commonly available. My house has 1.6 gpf models due to being built in the 90s. Before that, it wasn't uncommon to find 3.5 or even 5 gallon models.

I's not sure you would get adequate bowl cleaning or enough water to push waste a good distance down the drain line with less than 1.28 gallons. It'd be interesting to hear if you figure something out.

Ours literally were from the 1950s and 1960s. The year of manufacture was stamped on the inside of the tank. The innards of those old toilets looked like they were replaced at least a couple of times because there was no way anything that modern was standard in a 1950s toilet. And it was frustrating dealing with 5 gallons of water that couldn't flush last night's dinner. Even my Brasscraft bellows plunger couldn't deal with it. I think I also got a $100 credit per toilet as long as I could verify that the old toilets were at least 2.7 gpf. Each toilet actually cost $130.

These low water toilets work really well too, using a 3" Fluidmaster 540 flapper. I guess the only thing I'd hope is that if it comes time to replace it, I could just get a silicone seal instead of the entire mechanism. HD sells the American Standard OEM flapper for about $8, but it has to be special ordered for pickup. They seem to also have the Fluidmaster labeled one for $7. I saw the Fluidmaster packaging at HD and it even says it's suitable for the American Standard Cadet 3.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Fluidmaster-3-in-Toilet-Tank-Flapper-for-Glacier-Bay-5401GBP4/205114939
https://www.homedepot.com/p/American-Sta...0070A/204387897

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
After a flush, that roller clamp tube controls the amount of water to refill the BOWL, not the tank. The 400A has separate adjustments to control the TANK fill level.

After a flush, while the tank is filling, water is going through that small tube to fill the bowl. Once the bowl reaches is highest possible level, any additional water just flows into the trapway and down the drain. That roller clamp is adjusted so the amount of water to fill the BOWL is timed that it reaches its highest level at about the same time the tank fill shuts off. This eliminates the extra water into the bowl that ends up going down the drain.

Again, you want the bowl to reach maximum fill at the same time the tank fill shuts off. Hope this makes sense.

Yeah - I know all that. The tube goes with the clip into the overflow tube where it injects water into the bowl. I've heard of people who thought it was a waste and just routed the tube to empty into the tank. Or people who just let it hang loose and (because it was below the height of the tank fill) wouldn't shut off.

I thought it was a waste of water when the bowl was already filled and water going down the trap while the tank was maybe 1/3 filled. These mechanisms are so simple, I wonder why Fluidmaster or Lavelle don't just include them with their basic models. When I was at HD, they didn't have the basic Korky fill valve, although it can be ordered for about $6 (vs $11 for the Platinum version that is in store) and the PerforMax (400AH) valve was about $14 compared to less than $8 for the regular 400A. However, Fluidmaster doesn't seem to have anything that's not made as an OEM part for Kohler that will work in a Kohler low-flow toilet like the one my parents have.

I actually used a dry erase marker to mark the bowl water level.

 

[DBMaster]

I replaced one of the two commodes in my house with one that has the Sloan Flushmate system built into it. I call it "The Flushinator." It has a pressure vessel inside the porcelain tank that is quite load, but quite effective. I installed that around 2002. Nowadays, there are gravity flush models that are plenty good. My house came with cheap garbage at the early onset of the 1.6 gpf requirement. They clogged quite often.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: DBMaster
I replaced one of the two commodes in my house with one that has the Sloan Flushmate system built into it. I call it "The Flushinator." It has a pressure vessel inside the porcelain tank that is quite load, but quite effective. I installed that around 2002. Nowadays, there are gravity flush models that are plenty good. My house came with cheap garbage at the early onset of the 1.6 gpf requirement. They clogged quite often.

Aren't they somewhat expensive? I can also fix a gravity toilet myself, but I don't know if I could handle trying to fix a pressure assist mechanism.

It's really nice how just good design like a wider trap and a wider flapper help. The problem with the 2" trap and flapper was that when it clogged up, the amount of water in the tank made it worse. I had it literally flood past the top of the bowl a few times on one flush.

The one my parents have is the Kohler Rialto one piece. It's quite expensive and frankly looks pretty nice with it's low height. However, it works horribly. Kohler tried to make it work better with a wider (and harder to find) flapper, but I don't think they made the trap any wider. The one I have uses less water, but it has a tank with maybe 3.5 gallons but only 1.3 gallons. The static pressure from this higher column of water makes the flush better.

 

[JTK]

^ Yep, have that same one piece Kohler in the bath off our master bedroom. The flapper is an odd-ball and pretty much mail-order only and like you say, it's NOT a powerful flusher at all. Decent looking commode (if there is such a thing LOL) is about all they are.

 

[Oldtom]

A few years ago I installed 2 flapperless Glacier Bay toilets in a rental. Glacier Bay is an el cheapo brand sold by Home Depot. Flapperless toilets have a tipping tray which fills with water. To flush you rotate the flush lever which dumps the tray. Great for water saving as there is no flapper to seep 24/7. If you lift the tank lid and the tray is overflowing, you need a new fill valve. That is about the only maintenance a flapperless toilet needs. These flush hard and have held up well IN A RENTAL. The average tenant can break an anvil with a rubber mallet.

I think the average toilet with flapper wastes a ton of water since the flapper wears and starts seeping slightly.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: JTK
^ Yep, have that same one piece Kohler in the bath off our master bedroom. The flapper is an odd-ball and pretty much mail-order only and like you say, it's NOT a powerful flusher at all. Decent looking commode (if there is such a thing LOL) is about all they are.

My parents' house has two of those, as well as a Rosario, which is a taller one-piece toilet. If you need to replace the fill valve, the options seem to be the Kohler OEM or the Korky QuietFill (or QuietFill Platinum). The "universal" fill valves from Fluidmaster can't shorten enough although they make the OEM valve for Kohler.

https://www.amazon.com/Kohler-04-9164-1068030-Fill-Valve/dp/B003H48FMQ
https://www.homedepot.com/p/KOHLER-Fill-Valve-Assembly-K-1068030/203031864

As far as the flapper goes, if it's the "shark fin" type (it's pretty obvious) then HD has it. They have a lot of the other unique Kohler flappers, but not all. My folks' low-profile ones use the shark fin. Years ago I bought several at HD, and they were marketed by Lavelle as "Kohler Genuine Parts" since they made it for them. You could also order the Kohler part directly from them, and it came in a box instead of a blister pack. The parts sold at HD were all pretty cheap too - maybe $3 each depending on the type; there were several different wide flappers including the shark fin and a hinged flapper. Later on Lavelle seemed to market them as "works with Kohler" without the Kohler logo. These days I only see the Kohler blister pack, and it's almost $10. From experience they will last at least 5 years if you don't use tank chemicals, but once they start going they start discoloring, the rubber hardens, and pieces might even flake off with direct contact.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/KOHLER-Flapper-with-Shark-Fin-GP1078440/202524202

 

[DBMaster]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Aren't they somewhat expensive? I can also fix a gravity toilet myself, but I don't know if I could handle trying to fix a pressure assist mechanism.


YES. In 2002 I paid $200 for the toilet at Lowe's. There are a few replaceable parts inside, but if you have issues you replace the entire pressure vessel. (Look up Sloane and "exploding toilets.") At the time, though, there weren't too many options for good performance with the government mandated water usage. Technology has caught up. So, my once advanced commode is now a throwback.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Aren't they somewhat expensive? I can also fix a gravity toilet myself, but I don't know if I could handle trying to fix a pressure assist mechanism.


YES. In 2002 I paid $200 for the toilet at Lowe's. There are a few replaceable parts inside, but if you have issues you replace the entire pressure vessel. (Look up Sloane and "exploding toilets.") At the time, though, there weren't too many options for good performance with the government mandated water usage. Technology has caught up. So, my once advanced commode is now a throwback.

I looked for prices at Home Depot, and they have everything from about $340 to $1600 for one of those high tech thrones.

I remember seeing a few of these things in restaurants with the lid off. A few times I even took off the lid myself for a peek. I guess it's a lot like modern cars or electronics where you generally assume that it's going to be reliable enough, and if it fails it gets replaced as one large part. And it did look kind of dangerous - like a boiler. I've actually repaired an espresso machine, so I'm familiar with high-pressure parts and how they can fail when a gasket leaks. And I found a few videos of the remains of pressure assisted toilets that exploded.

In my experience, most large commercial establishments use flushometers so there's no pressure tank behind the user.

 

[DBMaster]

I had to replace my pressure vessel in 2010 because it was drip-drip-dripping. Then, the class action suit happened. I eventually got a check for $25 - for my labor. I paid $110 for a new pressure vessel that I installed myself in 2010. Sloan sent me a brand new one that I have stored as a spare because the stainless steel clamp I was sent should prevent any explosions of the vessel that's in there now. Like I said, it was a popular solution to the low flush performance issue in the 1990s. I first saw one in a hotel room and thought, "Where do I get one of these." But current plumbing technology has, more or less, made this approach obsolete.

 

[thastinger]

I have 3 toilets in the house. At the highest level is an old school 5 galloner which would flush a dismembered body. The other 2 bathrooms I had remodeled in the 90s with the first gen 1.6 flush models. Those things sucked but they were ok until the wife and I had kids. Once the kids got old enough to use them without our supervision, they would clog those POS things up nearly every day. It got so bad that I replaced the 2 old 1.6 flushers with modern Kholer 1.6 ones. Those 2 Kholers have never been clogged up in 3 years, they have a "pee flush" which is really quick then a "turd flush" which is a longer hold of the handle. I swear that those kholers would flush a load of dirty socks on the long handle hold. It was some of the best money I ever spent to upgrade those 2 toilets.

 

[DBMaster]

Yeah, I still have one of those POS early generation 1.6 gpf models. I would have replaced it by now except for two things. I haven't replaced the vinyl flooring in that bathroom and the installer cut the vinyl AROUND the base of the toilet. And, worse, the setback is slightly less than 11", meaning that the hole in the floor is too close to the wall. The current tank is mashed against the wall and it takes a double stacked tank to bowl gasket to not leak. I'd have to rework the flange or get a "compact" model commode to replace the thing.

 

[y_p_w]

When I got these 1.28 gpf toilets I was looking at a special rebate (as a credit) from my water utility that didn’t include 1.6. The American Standard one was possibly the best bargain as a complete kit that came with a wax ring and slow-close lid for under $130 at HD. The only toilets on the rebate list that were cheaper were HD house brand, and were only shipped (no free pick up) for $30 more. I was skeptical about their performance, but I rarely have whip out the plunger now except when my kid decides to dump TP in the bowl. However, I could have probably added one of these adjustable bowl fill tube thingies back then. The adjustable bowl fill tube comes with Fluidmaster’s faster fill valve, but it’s not really all that necessary with such a small flush.

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Yeah, I still have one of those POS early generation 1.6 gpf models. I would have replaced it by now except for two things. I haven't replaced the vinyl flooring in that bathroom and the installer cut the vinyl AROUND the base of the toilet. And, worse, the setback is slightly less than 11", meaning that the hole in the floor is too close to the wall. The current tank is mashed against the wall and it takes a double stacked tank to bowl gasket to not leak. I'd have to rework the flange or get a "compact" model commode to replace the thing.


Get a 10" rough-in model... mines a TOTO Drake

 

[DBMaster]

That's what I meant by "compact." I believe Home Depot actually carries one that's under $150. Otherwise, they are pricey at plumbing supply places

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: DBMaster
That's what I meant by "compact." I believe Home Depot actually carries one that's under $150. Otherwise, they are pricey at plumbing supply places

I've heard some claims that what's available at the big box home improvement stores isn't always the same quality (perhaps grading for fit/finish) as those at plumbing supply houses. Of course these claims come from plumbers so they may not be the the most unbiased source. The American Standard toilet I got was one that only HD sold as a kit and cost way less (maybe half) than the equivalent version at a plumbing supply. There are some parts that the big box stores don't sell because the suppliers won't sell to them. The OEM style replacement fill valve for the Kohler low-profile toilets is the Fluidmaster PRO747K, and I believe is identical to the OEM Kohler part that I paid more for. I found it directly sold by Amazon, but HD and Lowe's don't have it. There's also a pro version of the Korky QuietFill.

 

[JustinH]

Yep we have two 1.28 American Standard toilets from lowes last year.

The champion 4 with the elongated bowl.

Wife wanted a smaller american standard with a round bowl in the guest bath.

The champion has been excellent, the round bowl american standard has been poor at best, clogs often.

I am considering throwing out the round bowl model.