Toe: which way?

[supton]

I put on some nearly new RT43's 5kmiles ago; and I noticed some feathering last night. Tires might have had a slight amount when I got them, but this seems worse. So I suspect I need to adjust the toe. Which way do I want to go? Sorry for the poor picture, but this illustrates the direction: front of car is to left, and the "sharp" edge is to front. Ramp is to rear. Feathering is only on the outside of the tire; inside feels fine.



For the record, I put on new struts at the same time, and set the toe up front at zero. Those tires feel fine. The rear got new struts too; and I measured 2mm toe in, according to my notes; what I found on the web was 4mm +/- 2mm was the spec. Regardless of what the spec is, and my ability to measure it "properly", it appears the toe is off. What I'm not sure is if I should go for 0mm or 4mm. [I know that the rear tires will tend to toe out while in motion, on a FWD car. So I'm a bit surprised at the issue.]

I'm thinking I have too much toe in, and that I need to heads towards zero.

 

[LotI]

Which car?

The current Camry has zero toe in front and +0.22 degrees in the rear. +- 0.17 degrees

 

[IndyIan]

Do you have any rear negative camber? If so I'd go for zero toe. Do you find the odd time the rear end moves around if you hit icy patches on one side then the other? I had a ton of rear toe on the Focus(still in spec though) and it was getting squirelly on ice, with bit of the same wear pattern you have. So I had them set the toe to zero, Ford specs be [censored]. Now it drives great on ice, but perhaps gets blown around a little more in sidewinds, but not enough to matter.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: LotI
Which car?

The current Camry has zero toe in front and +0.22 degrees in the rear. +- 0.17 degrees


The '99 Camry.

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Do you have any rear negative camber? If so I'd go for zero toe. Do you find the odd time the rear end moves around if you hit icy patches on one side then the other? I had a ton of rear toe on the Focus(still in spec though) and it was getting squirelly on ice, with bit of the same wear pattern you have. So I had them set the toe to zero, Ford specs be [censored]. Now it drives great on ice, but perhaps gets blown around a little more in sidewinds, but not enough to matter.


Can't measure camber, so, no idea. Needs eccentric bolts to adjust anyhow.

I've always thought the car moved a bit much in sidewinds. I haven't driven it much in inclement weather, so no idea on ice (save one time where I had a ball with the e-brake).

Sounds like I should just back the toe out a bit. Supposed to be cold this weekend, but I need to do a tire rotation, so I might try to do both.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

You can feather the outside by hard cornering.

Otherwise, its excess toe INWARD (or sloppy LCA suspension bushings).

Do you drive often on a crowned road?

Counter-steering a crown (in N.A.) will feather the PS front.

Toe should be in or out total 0.14 deg MAX

 

[mazdamonky]

My Mazda protege has to run 0 tow front and rear or else I get pretty nasty tow wear, even with short tire rotations. With 0 tow, I am able to run the front tires for 20k plus miles with no abnormal wear and then rotate and get another 20k miles easy on tires rated for 40k miles. I am also running 2 degrees negative camber front and 2.5 degrees negative camber back. I do have minor camber wear but not enough to cause tires rated for 40k to last any less than 40k. Tow wear always caused previous tire sets to die around 25 to 30k.

 

[supton]

I do feel like I have to keep a slight rightward turn on the wheel, otherwise it wants to go left. I shrug it off. New quickstruts, the LCA bushings didn't look bad. I don't typically corner hard, although "hard" might be relative, what being 195 series rubber.

Both rear tires have the same wear pattern.

 

[mk378]

Indeed, tires wearing on the outside is often because it is toed in too far.

Steering wheel off center is easily corrected by turning the tie rods the same amount in opposite directions. But if the car actually "pulls"-- it doesn't want to go in a straight line when you let go of the wheel, that is a different problem.

A professional alignment may be in order. Yes you'll have to pay but alignment racks make this stuff easy.

 

[IndyIan]

You can see excessive camber pretty easily, if you can't see any then you are close enough to zero.

 

[Nick1994]

Yup, it's toed in.

My Camry does this even after a dealership alignment last summer, not too quickly though.

 

[02SE]

It kind of resembles the hairstyle that seems so popular with the kids these days..

 

[bigt61]

Bump the tire pressure up a few pounds - that should help. A cheap angle finder and a straight edge will give you an idea of the camber. Positive camber will feather the outside edges.

 

[LotI]

Originally Posted By: bigt61
Bump the tire pressure up a few pounds - that should help. A cheap angle finder and a straight edge will give you an idea of the camber. Positive camber will feather the outside edges.

Anyone with a smartphone has an angle finder...Apple includes it in the compass app. Android users can get a free app.

 

[jjjxlr8]

The wear depicted in your sketch is simply heal-toe wear that may or may not be magnified by alignment settings. Tread blocks tend to wear on the trailing edge like that even if there are no camber or toe effects. It's from the way the tread blocks snap out of the contact patch. Cross rotation (tire needs to roll the opposite direction) will help to even this out.

 

[Traction]

By the time you figure it out destroying your tires trying to DIY, an pro alignment seems like it would be much cheaper.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: Traction
By the time you figure it out destroying your tires trying to DIY, an pro alignment seems like it would be much cheaper.


This set of tires was $110; an alignment is at least $80. This summer I probably will be doing front wheel bearings, so that is another front end alignment, so what $130 in costs, plus a few hours in an alignment shop? Plus who knows when the next suspension problem will pop up.

Seems prudent to figure out how to DIY my own alignments. Only thing adjustable is toe, after all.

 

[Nick1994]

Hey Supton, just as a head up on those wheel bearings. I had my mechanic do them on my Camry last summer and it was a total pain. He has a 10 ton Harbor Freight press and he replaced the bottle jack with a 20 ton. He used a 4 foot pipe on the end of the jack handle and bent the press and the wheel bearings finally popped free. He used sledge hammers and an air chisel before and couldn't get them out.

Replaced with Timkens and it drives like a dream now.

 

[supton]

Yeah, not looking forward to the job. I figure, I'll let a garage do the pressing. Am getting tired of the drone; when I bought the car I was hoping it was tire noise, as it doesn't have the low speed rumble that I've had before.

Just messed with the toe. I found a mm of toe out initially. ? I set it to zero (but not until I confused myself with which way to turn, getting turns count off in the process). Have to see how it does now.

 

[Rand]

Personally with all that work coming up I'd just cross or X rotate the tires and see what happens after your adjustment.