Tires designed for negative camber

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It's a 2004 WRX sedan in the stock size - 205/55R16.

I just got a set of Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3, so I'm not necessarily in the market for new tires. However, these are nondirectional asymmetric, as have been all but one of the replacement tire models (tried the Bridgestone RE960AS) I've tried since I got the car.

I'm wondering if there's any issue. Some people say there's no issue, but I've heard a lot of tire dealers tell me that some uneven wear is inevitable unless you corner the heck out of the car, and in that case premature wear can be the issue.
 
Originally Posted By: FetchFar
They make star-spec tires have harder/more-surface-rubber and assymetrical stiffness to compensate for uneven tire wear resulting from negative camber. (You were thinking they were lopsided, thicker on one side, not the case.)


Sorry, but again, I don't think so. If that was the case, then all the BMW spec'd tires would have a "This side out" note on the sidewall - and they don't. They only ones that do are asymmetrically tread patterned tires - and to my knowledge, they aren't stiffer on one side.

Originally Posted By: FetchFar
I was told they reduce wear rates on the inside edge with harder compounding on that side, not thickness, to get even wear. Supposedly this all comes straight from BMW training! I'd like more confirmation too.


I still don't think so. I think someone made this up to compensate for the fact that they don't know why this works.
 
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OK, I am going to explain to folks about camber and toe and how you can get even tire wear from severe camber settings.

If you've watched any of the Formula 1 races, they sometimes have a thermal imaging camera pointed at the tires. If you watch carefully, when the vehicle is going around a corner, the outside tire (the one doing most of the cornering) has a very even heat signature across the face of the tread. If you look at the other tire, you'll notice it doesn't.

I found a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHC_nZzRBdk

Since most tire wear occurs in the cornering mode, if the outside tire is generating even heat, it is also generating even wear. By the same token, the inner tire (which isn't being evenly heated) develops uneven wear side to side.

- BUT -

The difference in wear rate is astonishing. The inside tire doesn't wear much if the Akerman is the way it is supposed to be (which is usually a problem with street cars). But I'll bet BMW has designed their cars for proper Akerman for hard cornering. (and a side bit is that having too much Akerman is not as bad for tire wear as having too little, however, the cornering feel with a car with too much Akerman is horrible. Just ask me about my van.)

What is Akerman? It is the change in toe as the steering wheel is turned - and typically, street cars need more toe out as they corner than when they are going straight ahead. Think about how the outer tire has to traverse a larger diameter circle, so the inside tire has to be pointed more towards the inside of the turn.

- BUT -

As the cornering force gets higher, the tires have to develop more of a slip angle, and the amount of toe out needed (Akerman) decreases.

So hard cornering in a car not designed for hard cornering results in the inside tire (relative to the turn) being dragged around the corner - and typically, this tire is also cambered the wrong way, and the inside tire wears more.

So now let's imagine what happens if the toe is not set to spec AND there is a high camber setting. When going straight ahead, the tires are being dragged ever so slightly sideways and they aren't wearing evenly. And the worse the toe is, the worse the wear is. The toe acts like a multiplier.

So even a vehicle with high camber can get even tire wear IF the toe is right. But for every little bit of wrong toe, the effect on wear is worse.

BMW's are known to us in the tire industry as having tire wear issues - but BMW also has the tightest toe tolerance. So while a lot of BMW's don't have wear issues, when they do, they can be quite bad. Unfortunately, many other vehicle manufacturers are using high camber settings and those vehicles are experiencing uneven wear.
 
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And one last thought:

To my knowledge, ALL vehicle manufacturers require their tires to be marked indicating the tire is approved for use on their vehicles (to prevent the tire manufacturer from substituting unapproved tires being sent to the assembly plant).

BMW requires a star
GM requires a TPC number
Jaguar requires a J
Audi requires an AO
Mercedes requires an MO
Ford requires a coded number (but the number isn't obvious and it's up to the tire manufacturer to set the code)
Porsche requires an N with a number (N0, N1, N2, etc.)

Here's Tire Rack's list:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=23

I don't know all the ways this is done - and apparently even Tire Rack doesn't know them all. I'll bet some vehicle manufacturers require a unique DOT code.

OK, even one more thought:

I've spent some time in tire factories and no one has ever mentioned (nor have I observed) any difference in the way BMW tires are made side to side (except for the obvious difference in the tread, but that is common for any asymmetrically treaded tire).) That is, in order to have a difference in stiffness side to side, there has to be something different and not only would that complicate the manufacturing process, there would be mistakes made from time to time - and I just have never heard of such mistakes.
 
Assuming you have no toe, camber doesn't necessarily cause uneven wear. If you have too much negative camber relative to how much the tire flexes or how hard you drive the car, the tire will wear to the inside. If you don't have enough negative camber, it'll wear to the outside. Different drivers and different tires will need different amounts of camber to get even wear on a given vehicle.
 
Originally Posted By: AboutTires
There are, on the other hand, tires with camber literally built in. I have yet to drive on them, but many experts are gap-jawed shocked by the performance. Mr. Scott is currently negotiating with major tiremakers.

How Cambered Tires Work

The Sense-Filled Rantings Of John Scott



Seems to me to be 6 or a half dozen. You can run a cambered tire straight up and down ie no camber or run a non cambered tire at negative camber. Running a cambered tire at negative camber would provide even more camber.

I don't think that idea is going anywhere. Putting more material on the inside to compensate for wear is what is rally needed.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette


Seems to me to be 6 or a half dozen. You can run a cambered tire straight up and down ie no camber or run a non cambered tire at negative camber. Running a cambered tire at negative camber would provide even more camber.

I don't think that idea is going anywhere. Putting more material on the inside to compensate for wear is what is rally needed.



No, the tires are designed to run with negative camber. When you put in negative camber, the tread is flat to the ground and wear is even. If you run a cambered tire at zero camber, it runs on the outer edge and the inner shoulder is in the air.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: AboutTires
There are, on the other hand, tires with camber literally built in. I have yet to drive on them, but many experts are gap-jawed shocked by the performance. Mr. Scott is currently negotiating with major tiremakers.

How Cambered Tires Work

The Sense-Filled Rantings Of John Scott



Seems to me to be 6 or a half dozen. You can run a cambered tire straight up and down ie no camber or run a non cambered tire at negative camber. Running a cambered tire at negative camber would provide even more camber.

I don't think that idea is going anywhere. Putting more material on the inside to compensate for wear is what is rally needed.



Most tires I've had installed used thinner tread at the edges. The thickness of the tread tapers off towards the edge. I'm thinking there's supposed to be some sort of handling advantage to this.

Here's the tire I got:

Y5E6U3@1.jpg


You can see where the tread depth tapers down. and this was the area where I was seeing premature wear.
 
Originally Posted By: AboutTires
Originally Posted By: turtlevette


Seems to me to be 6 or a half dozen. You can run a cambered tire straight up and down ie no camber or run a non cambered tire at negative camber. Running a cambered tire at negative camber would provide even more camber.

I don't think that idea is going anywhere. Putting more material on the inside to compensate for wear is what is rally needed.



No, the tires are designed to run with negative camber. When you put in negative camber, the tread is flat to the ground and wear is even. If you run a cambered tire at zero camber, it runs on the outer edge and the inner shoulder is in the air.


That would be totally self defeating. At that point, just run a normal tire with no camber. It'll perform the same. The purpose of camber is so the tread is flat to the ground when turning, which means it won't be when going straight.
 
Properly engineered higher performance cars have HUGE camber change as the wheel is turned. Then they return to normal as they straighten out.

Check out a newer high performance car, many of them have this feature. My old SRT8 has so much camber when the wheels are hard over that people often think my tire needs air because it's up on its sidewall!
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Properly engineered higher performance cars have HUGE camber change as the wheel is turned. Then they return to normal as they straighten out.

Check out a newer high performance car, many of them have this feature. My old SRT8 has so much camber when the wheels are hard over that people often think my tire needs air because it's up on its sidewall!


You are talking about caster, which adds camber as the steering wheel is turned.

The problem with lots of caster is that this seems to cause a shimmy. Jeeps are known for this (the Jeep Death Rattle!)

On the other hand, caster only applies to the front axle. To get camber in the rear axle, the suspension either has to start that way, or the suspension travel is set up to gain camber as the suspension is compressed - which means camber is lost as the suspension extends. Thinking about it, that sounds like the right way to do this, so I wonder why this isn't the way this is done. (or maybe I have that wrong and you get increased camber both ways!) ??
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Properly engineered higher performance cars have HUGE camber change as the wheel is turned. Then they return to normal as they straighten out.

Check out a newer high performance car, many of them have this feature. My old SRT8 has so much camber when the wheels are hard over that people often think my tire needs air because it's up on its sidewall!


You are talking about caster, which adds camber as the steering wheel is turned.

The problem with lots of caster is that this seems to cause a shimmy. Jeeps are known for this (the Jeep Death Rattle!)

On the other hand, caster only applies to the front axle. To get camber in the rear axle, the suspension either has to start that way, or the suspension travel is set up to gain camber as the suspension is compressed - which means camber is lost as the suspension extends. Thinking about it, that sounds like the right way to do this, so I wonder why this isn't the way this is done. (or maybe I have that wrong and you get increased camber both ways!) ??


Thanks for the correction/clarification, as I still mix up the two terms.
 
Steve - Adding caster to get more dyanamic camber gain works up front, but that doesn't help you in the back. If you have a car with minimal body roll where the rear suspension isn't compressing much in a corner, there's not a lot you can do beyond running more static camber.


As far as caster wobble, that can happen, but it usually takes a heck of a lot of caster to cause it. In the Jeeps, it's usually caused by not enough caster (caster adds centering force to the steering).
 
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Originally Posted By: y_p_w
I've been getting decent wear out of a set of Continental Extreme Contact DWS. However, I'm still getting extreme wear on the inside edge - probably as a result of the negative camber in the back and that I don't corner the heck out of it.

I'm wondering if there might be a tire to counter those effects, or if adding rubber to the inside edge would probably negate the handling benefits.


the first thing if you dont corner that hard, why keep too much camber ?
there is no single setting fits all, so if priority is to drive not that aggressive and keep the tyre, just adjust the alignment accordingly
 
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