Tire Business Article on Winter Tires

[UG_Passat]

"I have a right" group of people are absolutely dumbest group one can encounter. One minute of conversation with them and you quickly realize they are pretty much illiterate.
We had that initiative a few years back here in CO to at least demanding it on the I70 stretch through the Rockies. "I have a right" people immediately popped out. Still, the law was passed that fines people who block lanes due to lack of winter equipment for I think $600 each hour of the stall.

The last traction law CO passed about the I70 stretch, the original version mandated 3PMS tires... but after some complaints, it got dumbed down to M+S with at least 3/16" tread tires.

Utah got halfway there. In the canyon area roads (where they are subject to avalanches), 2WD must have 3PMS tires or snow chains. 4WD can make due with regular M+S tires

 

[edyvw]

The last traction law CO passed about the I70 stretch, the original version mandated 3PMS tires... but after some complaints, it got dumbed down to M+S with at least 3/16" tread tires.

Utah got halfway there. In the canyon area roads (where they are subject to avalanches), 2WD must have 3PMS tires or snow chains. 4WD can make due with regular M+S tires

Yes, "dumbed down" is the correct word.
I think the law still says that if the lane is blocked, there are fines per hour.

 

[IndyIan]

Your Ontario law makers does not agree with your assessment.

Not yet, I wish they did. Almost everyone I know runs winters already but many try not to. In the Toronto area its starting to average only a few days a year you really need them which is why I think we don't have the law yet. Farther north where I am we get more days where they are useful. My parents got some toyo celcius all weather tires and they seem to do well enough year round so for people in the city that's an option if you aren't doing huge miles.

 

[Dave9]

Tires are key! Let's get off this common sense garbage that people argue just to comfort themselves (personally here in CO I consider all those driving A/S tires absolutely stupid).
Real-life does not work that way. You can have a dry road, drive posted limit, and hit a patch of ice or snow behind curve. Snow tires are much more capable in really cold conditions in dry than anything All season.
You can still drive slow with snow tires, but if you think you will compensate lack of traction and braking capabilities of snow tires by driving "slow," you fall into that group that thinks if they wish hard enough, it will happen.

Have been driving winter snowy roads for decades with zero accidents on all season tires.

That's not "think", that's know, and that is real life that worked that way.

There is no argument that in some situations, winter tires have more traction. There is also no argument, that road tread, winter tires, are worse for loose pack snow. You want to take the "what if" some sudden patch of ice or snow", but one of those two is snow. "What if" you have road tread winter tires and do come upon snow that isn't hard packed?

It really is about slowing down. If you don't feel that way, you must not be slowing down, so you are at greater risk with winter tires than someone who slowed down (more) with all season, because of the very thing you mentioned, unexpected sudden patches of bad pavement.

Again, I not only think, but do, compensate for less traction and braking by slowing down. It has worked for many years. It would be madness to do anything else because if you don't slow down you are driving faster than other traffic which in itself presents dangers, as does any wreck you have going at the higher speed because you didn't slow down.

The thing to remember is it is all about the environment. In extreme environments where it is very cold, winter tires matter more, but that is still offset by the speed of travel. Believe it or not, people used to manage to travel in winter with tires that had far worse traction than they do today.

It is not a miracle that this happened, rather it was accepting reality instead of placing all bets on type of tire and not driving where the vehicle wasn't capable of going safely. Will it be a consolation if your tires have perfect grip but it is someone else that slides and slams into you? No, but it may be a consolation that you are going slower so the impact severity is reduced.

On the other hand, if someone is a bad driver, they need all the help they can get and yet, that includes the vehicle type or better yet, to be told to stay home when weather is more than they can handle.

 

[edyvw]

Have been driving winter snowy roads for decades with zero accidents on all season tires.

That's not "think", that's know, and that is real life that worked that way.

There is no argument that in some situations, winter tires have more traction. There is also no argument, that road tread, winter tires, are worse for loose pack snow. You want to take the "what if" some sudden patch of ice or snow", but one of those two is snow. "What if" you have road tread winter tires and do come upon snow that isn't hard packed?

It really is about slowing down. If you don't feel that way, you must not be slowing down, so you are at greater risk with winter tires than someone who slowed down (more) with all season, because of the very thing you mentioned, unexpected sudden patches of bad pavement.

Again, I not only think, but do, compensate for less traction and braking by slowing down. It has worked for many years. It would be madness to do anything else because if you don't slow down you are driving faster than other traffic which in itself presents dangers, as does any wreck you have going at the higher speed because you didn't slow down.

The thing to remember is it is all about the environment. In extreme environments where it is very cold, winter tires matter more, but that is still offset by the speed of travel. Believe it or not, people used to manage to travel in winter with tires that had far worse traction than they do today.

It is not a miracle that this happened, rather it was accepting reality instead of placing all bets on type of tire and not driving where the vehicle wasn't capable of going safely. Will it be a consolation if your tires have perfect grip but it is someone else that slides and slams into you? No, but it may be a consolation that you are going slower so the impact severity is reduced.

On the other hand, if someone is a bad driver, they need all the help they can get and yet, that includes the vehicle type or better yet, to be told to stay home when weather is more than they can handle.

I know people who drive on summer tires in winter and never had accidents. I know people who drive on all seasons for 20 years and never had an accident until they lost control and according to them, could not figure out why bcs. they were driving very slow.
Accidents happen in perfect weather too.
As for how people were driving before, I agree. But, people before also lived without the internet too, yet I see you have it. Or they were buying bananas in not such great conditions bcs. took them longer to be delivered. So, do you buy now almost rotten bananas bcs. that is how people were eating half a century ago?
Your arguments do not have any sense as there are people who never had accidents in their life and people who are excellent drivers and had several.
For me personally, this is a ridiculous discussion, coming from a country where snow tires are mandatory for the last 40 years. I already stated this in a previous discussion about "common sense" when a few weeks ago I had to go and get family out of the fire station bcs. they ended up in a ditch. A "common sense" guy who was just surprised it got "that bad."

 

[Averroes]

Your Ontario law makers does not agree with your assessment.

We don't have the sharpest tools in the tool box running the show here. Been this way for some time from Crapleen Wynn, John "the Moron" Tory and Doug "I can't make proper licence plates" Ford. The problem is that if I ran for PM of Ontario (which I do want to one day) I would probably be assassinated for bringing positive change. Politicians fear those who they can't find dirt on and love those who they can find it on.

 

[Dave9]

Your arguments do not have any sense as there are people who never had accidents in their life and people who are excellent drivers and had several.

Strongly disagree. A mark of an excellent driver is being able to do a simple thing like go from point A to B, without accidents.

Obviously this should be seen as accidents per mile and that some environments are more dangerous than others, AND some areas require racking up a lot of miles just to go into town, but being in several accidents is far more often than not, the result of bad decisions.

Even if you are driving great and someone hits you so it's their fault, it becomes a matter of defensive driving. I couldn't even count the # of times I avoided accidents by driving my way out of them rather than trying to brake and hope for the best.

This includes having 3PMS rated all season AT tires for winter, not having street tread winter tires, so if you do end up having to go off the roadway into the loose pack snow, you have more control and possibly don't get stuck. Far too many people think linearly that they have to stay on a road and impact someone so they brake like crazy rather than seeing that it is far more desirable to go off the road, even into a ditch, even if you get stuck, as long as you don't roll over or impact a virtually immovable object.

A good driver looks for the out, assesses at all times, where the safest place to be is. If there is no safe out, you SLOW DOWN.

 

[edyvw]

Strongly disagree. A mark of an excellent driver is being able to do a simple thing like go from point A to B, without accidents.

Obviously this should be seen as accidents per mile and that some environments are more dangerous than others, AND some areas require racking up a lot of miles just to go into town, but being in several accidents is far more often than not, the result of bad decisions.

Even if you are driving great and someone hits you so it's their fault, it becomes a matter of defensive driving. I couldn't even count the # of times I avoided accidents by driving my way out of them rather than trying to brake and hope for the best.

This includes having 3PMS rated all season AT tires for winter, not having street tread winter tires, so if you do end up having to go off the roadway into the loose pack snow, you have more control and possibly don't get stuck. Far too many people think linearly that they have to stay on a road and impact someone so they brake like crazy rather than seeing that it is far more desirable to go off the road, even into a ditch, even if you get stuck, as long as you don't roll over or impact a virtually immovable object.

A good driver looks for the out, assesses at all times, where the safest place to be is. If there is no safe out, you SLOW DOWN.

So instead of having snow tires, driving off the road is better option? Interesting.

 

[Dave9]

So instead of having snow tires, driving off the road is better option? Interesting.

Driving off the road to avoid a collision, definitely, but it doesn't have to be one or the other, rather it is just more likely you'll get stuck or lose control if using road tread winter tires when you go off-road, though the latter is less likely if you... get ready for it... slow down.

 

[edyvw]

Driving off the road to avoid a collision, definitely, but it doesn't have to be one or the other, rather it is just more likely you'll get stuck or lose control if using road tread winter tires when you go off-road, though the latter is less likely if you... get ready for it... slow down.

So questions:
What is a road tread winter tire?
Why would you go off-road with such a tire? Are you assuming people just drive like crazy with winter tires?
So one cannot drive slow with a winter tire? Most accidents happen in neighborhoods, not on open roads. Sometimes the braking difference in speeds of 20mph between snow tires and all-season tires in icy conditions could be in 20+ feet. Not a small difference (actually that is an understatement).

 

[Pew]

Off road here means I'm hopping up a curb into somebody's yard and breaking my wheel, hub, and control arms . Nope, my little focus is staying on the road. There's lots of "what-ifs" but one thing that is a fact and not a what-if is that I want a tire that does good on the surface where I'm 99.9% going to be on; not the tire that does good on surfaces where I do less than 1% of my driving.

That being said, I'm one of the people that still think winter tires is subjected to your local weather conditions. Certain states require it because their weather conditions or geography makes it obvious and some don't. I run winter tires but in the past 6 years there hasn't been any decent amount of snow in IL to justify the price of snow tires - you could have made it through the winter with bald 200tw tires on a corvette because any little snow we got melted by the afternoon sun. I won't dispute the benefits of snow tires in the snow but I'll dispute whether or not it's justified.

I've never had legit snow tires comes close to the grip in cold/dry conditions compared to an all-season although I was impressed by one - the Michelin Pilot Alpins, which was more of a moderate winter tire than a snow tire. Summer tires still have better grip than winter tires in cold/dry conditions but man will they break away fast and unpredictable.

 

[Dave9]

So questions:
What is a road tread winter tire?
Why would you go off-road with such a tire? Are you assuming people just drive like crazy with winter tires?
So one cannot drive slow with a winter tire? Most accidents happen in neighborhoods, not on open roads. Sometimes the braking difference in speeds of 20mph between snow tires and all-season tires in icy conditions could be in 20+ feet. Not a small difference (actually that is an understatement).

Practically all winter tires are road tread. I am not assuming people drive like crazy with winter tires, but that they obviously drive too fast for conditions if they think it makes much difference. EXCEPT in very cold temperature.

Yes you can drive slow with winter tires, and then it's hardly worth bothering to use them, except in very cold temperatures. Do you detect a theme here? It's the temperature of use that determines whether the softer rubber compound has much benefit. Did you selectively ignore or fail to understand when I wrote this previously?

Accidents happen in neighborhoods? Then you/they/whoever, must be driving too fast for conditions, including the speed limit.

20' is a very small difference, if... again... you slow down so it isn't 20'.

I can't help people who pretend that it's a "good driver" who gets into multiple accidents, only warn others to stay as far away from them on public roads as possible.

 

[Dave9]

Off road here means I'm hopping up a curb into somebody's yard and breaking my wheel, hub, and control arms .

Then you have the wrong vehicle for this environment and should make better choices.

Off road normally, and there too, only means at most you get stuck or suffer some tire damage, less than an insurance deductible to replace and reducing chance of harm to human life is worth orders of magnitude more than that.

It seems a lot like you are just speculating without any idea, or are driving vehicles terrible for winter use in snow. Which is it? Right now I can pretty much drive off a road at any moment and the main concern is not hitting an immovable object if we really want to look at "any moment" forced detour instead of the best plan based on observation of the surroundings.

If your vehicle is not fit for winter use, that's not on me. There are many reasons to pick a vehicle and if you prefer one that breaks wheels, hubs, and control arms, I am fine with that as long as your mistake does not harm other people in a collision from your refusal to suffer the loss instead of plowing into someone!

PS - You must be bad at math if you think a wheel, hub, and control arm, costs more than major body damage including paint, let alone the risk to life from a collision instead of avoiding one. That's ludicrous.

 

[Skippy722]

There's lots of "what-ifs" but one thing that is a fact and not a what-if is that I want a tire that does good on the surface where I'm 99.9% going to be on; not the tire that does good on surfaces where I do less than 1% of my driving.

That being said, I'm one of the people that still think winter tires is subjected to your local weather conditions. Certain states require it because their weather conditions or geography makes it obvious and some don't. I run winter tires but in the past 6 years there hasn't been any decent amount of snow in IL to justify the price of snow tires - you could have made it through the winter with bald 200tw tires on a corvette because any little snow we got melted by the afternoon sun. I won't dispute the benefits of snow tires in the snow but I'll dispute whether or not it's justified.

This! It’s flat here… the biggest “hill” I come across is the transition from my driveway to the road. And my FWD minivan on 3PMSF tires has no problem dealing with that covered in ice. Everything else is just gentle rolling hills or razor flat.

 

[edyvw]

Practically all winter tires are road tread. I am not assuming people drive like crazy with winter tires, but that they obviously drive too fast for conditions if they think it makes much difference. EXCEPT in very cold temperature.

Yes you can drive slow with winter tires, and then it's hardly worth bothering to use them, except in very cold temperatures. Do you detect a theme here? It's the temperature of use that determines whether the softer rubber compound has much benefit. Did you selectively ignore or fail to understand when I wrote this previously?

Accidents happen in neighborhoods? Then you/they/whoever, must be driving too fast for conditions, including the speed limit.

20' is a very small difference, if... again... you slow down so it isn't 20'.

I can't help people who pretend that it's a "good driver" who gets into multiple accidents, only warn others to stay as far away from them on public roads as possible.

So, you think difference in braking distance between snow tires and all-season tires at 20mph is not important? That is the difference between hitting a child on sled in your neighborhood. Snow tires are MUCH more capable at extremely cold weather than anything all season. Where do you get your information?
20' is small difference You really have not seen anything.

 

[edyvw]

Then you have the wrong vehicle for this environment and should make better choices.

Off road normally, and there too, only means at most you get stuck or suffer some tire damage, less than an insurance deductible to replace and reducing chance of harm to human life is worth orders of magnitude more than that.

It seems a lot like you are just speculating without any idea, or are driving vehicles terrible for winter use in snow. Which is it? Right now I can pretty much drive off a road at any moment and the main concern is not hitting an immovable object if we really want to look at "any moment" forced detour instead of the best plan based on observation of the surroundings.

If your vehicle is not fit for winter use, that's not on me. There are many reasons to pick a vehicle and if you prefer one that breaks wheels, hubs, and control arms, I am fine with that as long as your mistake does not harm other people in a collision from your refusal to suffer the loss instead of plowing into someone!

PS - You must be bad at math if you think a wheel, hub, and control arm, costs more than major body damage including paint, let alone the risk to life from a collision instead of avoiding one. That's ludicrous.

Tires are more important than vehicles. Subaru's are potentially great vehicles in winter, yet they are most common in the ditch here.
People who cause accidents are "common sense," know it all people who think it is a vehicle and not shoes.

 

[Dave9]

^ No, if you are driving slow enough, have the right vehicle and tires, you can drive OUT of the ditch or won't end up in one in the first place.

If you prefer to get into accidents and pretend that is normal because XYZ instead of learning from those that don't, please stay away from others on public roads.

 

[edyvw]

^ No, if you are driving slow enough, have the right vehicle and tires, you can drive OUT of the ditch or won't end up in one in the first place.

If you prefer to get into accidents and pretend that is normal because XYZ instead of learning from those that don't, please stay away from others on public roads.

Tell us, how you rank on Grand Theft Auto nationally?

 

[Pew]

Then you have the wrong vehicle for this environment and should make better choices.

Off road normally, and there too, only means at most you get stuck or suffer some tire damage, less than an insurance deductible to replace and reducing chance of harm to human life is worth orders of magnitude more than that.

It seems a lot like you are just speculating without any idea, or are driving vehicles terrible for winter use in snow. Which is it? Right now I can pretty much drive off a road at any moment and the main concern is not hitting an immovable object if we really want to look at "any moment" forced detour instead of the best plan based on observation of the surroundings.

If your vehicle is not fit for winter use, that's not on me. There are many reasons to pick a vehicle and if you prefer one that breaks wheels, hubs, and control arms, I am fine with that as long as your mistake does not harm other people in a collision from your refusal to suffer the loss instead of plowing into someone!

PS - You must be bad at math if you think a wheel, hub, and control arm, costs more than major body damage including paint, let alone the risk to life from a collision instead of avoiding one. That's ludicrous.

What kind of logic is having a ford focus the wrong vehicle to drive when I want to stay on the road? The curbs in my neighborhood and everywhere else here is at least 6" high. I'm not or is over three quarters of the US population buying a truck with 35" mudders just so I can drive off the road into somebody's yard because you don't know how to stay on the road.

^ No, if you are driving slow enough, have the right vehicle and tires, you can drive OUT of the ditch or won't end up in one in the first place.

So then drive properly and stay out the ditch and you won't need a vehicle to get out of of something you put yourself into in the first place.

I mean, you do realize you're supposed to drive on the road, not next to it right? Is driving into ditches how you justify your vehicle purchases?

 

[Traction]

Winter is over. It's spring now.