Tire Balancing Problem: Seeking Opinions

[Hokiefyd]

I have a set of Michelin X Radials from Sam's Club on my '07 T&C. They have right at 30k miles on them, and all tires are right close to 7/32" of tread depth. The original weights on the wheels from the factory were coated (to protect the wheels I guess), but the weights I've been getting from Sam's Club are not coated, and some have nicked the wheels (either the weights, or them clumsily taking them on and off). So I switched to them using the tape weights on inside of the wheel (not the inner lip, but the inside curve of the wheel, like flangeless wheels do). Ever since then, it seems like they can't quite get the tires balanced perfectly. And everytime I take it back, the weights move around some, indicating that the balance might keep changing. I had this experience before on a different van (with the weights moving around after each balance), but with one tire, and the problem was something internal to the tire. After that one tire was replaced, everything was fine. But I can't narrow this down to any one tire. It just seems like bad balancing jobs. The OEM tires (Bridgestone Turanza EL42) were glass smooth, so I don't suspect any bad wheels, etc.

I figure I have a few options:

1) I could take it back and have them re-balance, and keep using the tape weights. I may not get anywhere with this, because I've been doing this before.

2) I could take it back and have them use conventional clip-on weights. When they installed the tires, they got them balanced good this way.

3) I could take the tires to a Hunter GSP9700 machine to have them force balanced, at my expense. This is the only way I "proved" that the one tire I mentioned earlier was bad, and the retailer (not Sam's Club) replaced it for free. They even gave me my money back for the force balance, at my request.

I think I'm leaning towards option #2, but let me ask a few questions if I may:

A) Is there any functional difference in a tape weight and a clip-on weight? I think I read before that you'd need slightly more weight if using tape weights, because the weight would have less influence on balance being further inboard as compared with a clip-on weight.

B) Those wheels without flanges, that force you to use tape weights, are they built to a different specification, a higher tolerance, etc, which makes tape weights any more successful with those types of wheels?

C) My T&C's wheels do have the lip flanges, and they're "supposed" to use clip-on weights. Will I have more success (will I get a better balance?) if I use clip-on weights vs. tape weights?

Many thanks for your replies.

 

[Trav]

Its been my experience that stick on weights work well when done properly.
The wheels must be spotless inside and out.
Where the weight will be placed a very slight scuff with a ultra fine scotchbrite pad can be used inside the wheel to help adhesion.

If the assembly requires more than a couple of ounces have them rotate the tire physically 180 degrees on the rim and try it again.

Dividing the weight between inside the wheel from just inside the face and the outer inside edge may help.

 

[Kestas]

Agreed. If wheels are that difficult to balance, then the problem may be that the rim (or tire) has a wobble, or the tire may not be round. Tires should be matched to the rim, either by high-point or by weight point.

 

[willix]

+1 on adhesive center weights as an option to bead weights. If the rim surface is clean and the weight is covered with foil tape they will last.

A new tire has a lot of rubber on it and if you wear 4 to 5/32nds off it that tire now weights less and re-balance should be considered.

Bead weights are fine but they can occasionally fall off if improperly installed or can be rubbed off.

 

[sasilverbullet]

You need to have the tires balanced on a Hunter Road-Force Balance Machine. Most Discount Tire warehouse's have them, as do all the Porche Dealers.

The Hunter Road-Force balance tells the technician how to rotate the tire on the rim for best balance. Then after the weights are applied a number is given to the tire/wheel combination - this is the important number that determines whether you have a bad tire or not - if the number is less than 10, you're super, less than 15 is acceptable. If it's above 15 then you need to get the tire replaced.

I've owned four Porches and learned all about this new machine through the Porsche club. I don't know if it's been my luck or what, but every time I've put a set of four tires on a car and had them Hunter road-forced that at least one tire is unacceptable. Once I had four tires shipped from Tire Rack and two of them were above 20!

Good luck!

 

[casper]

quality shop+ road force should do the trick.

 

[Hokiefyd]

This may make a case for buying tires from retailers who have them (the force balancers). If I go this route, I'll have to pay for it out of pocket. The local Goodyear dealer has one, and I've been there before to them. We almost got into an argument because he told me that BMW's force specification was 20 pounds, and it's the tightest in the industry, and that any force under 20 pounds can't be felt. I wanted to tell him that that was hogwash, but took the high road and stroked his ego so that he'd give me the printout that I could take back to my tire retailer.

The one bad tire was sitting at 22 pounds, and he couldn't re-clock it and improve it (he tried).

 

[mrsilv04]

Ask your Sam's to balance them using clip-on weights only on the inside lip of the rim.

I have my Silverado done this way, to keep the outside of the rim damage free. The tires balance fine without any vibration.

My local Sam's refers to it as "static balancing". However, I'm not sure how accurate that term may be. They still use the spin balancer, they only weight the inside of the rim.

 

[Hokiefyd]

They do have the clip-on weights in the inside lip. But due to the damage to the outer lip, they're doing tape weights on the very outer edge of the inside shape of the wheel. Right inside of where the wheel spokes meet the rim cylinder, if that makes any sense. They're using a fair amount of weight (up to a 1.25 oz) in tape, so I assume that weight near the outer lip of the wheel is needed for some reason, no? What are the weights of your clip-ons on the inner lip? If they're not real heavy, the tires must be clocked exactly right on the wheels.

 

[willix]

I am a Road force balance skeptic. I am sure its a great modern machine but please. Tire balancing has not been re-invented.
A competent bubble balance works.
Too many times one's inability to come to the conclusion a rim is out of true or a tire with good tread is separated or the bling of 20's with some cheap chinese rubber & the hub pilot fancy rim doesn't fit the(too big) on the hub. I have seen guys spend $1000's on suspension work to find a bad tire in the end.

 

[The_Jeff]

Are you having them spin the tire/wheel up after balancing to check for zero weight needed? Could be the machine says "stick 2 oz here" and assumes it's on the lip, not inner portion where the weight does less good.

A 2-plane balance works better than static, which it sounds like they're doing by putting the weights only inside. Sometimes they even hide the weights behind the nearest spoke so you can't see them at all from outside. Aesthetically pleasing, but not perfect mechanically.

 

[CapriRacer]

It's a little unclear, but if I am reading this right, the tires have 30K on them and they at one time were vibration free and now are not? And one of the things that you did was replace the clip on weights with tape weights and the result has not been favorable.

1) Yes, the weight needed at the top of the flange where they put the clip-on weight is less than what would be needed if you put the weight on the flat of the rim. So whoever is doing this has to overcompensate if the machine is set up for clip-on weights.

2) Are the tires indicating they are balanced on the machine - or are they constantly chasing the weight around the rim withput ever moving the assembly off the balancer?

If the first one, you probably have irregular wear and that is usually causeed by mis-alignment and that can not be fixed unless you either wear a new pattern into the tires or replace the tires.

If the second one, then there is something wrong loose inside the tire or there's a problem with the balancer.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Thanks guys.

CapriRacer, I do not know if they are compensating for the tape weights, or how their balancing machine is calibrated. Is this a "setting" on most tire balancers? "Does this wheel have an outer flange or not?"

On the second question, I don't know either. From what I've watched through the window, they dismount the tire, remove the existing tape weights, spin the tire up, place new weights, spin the tire up again, then remount to the car. So it appears as if the machine indicates that they're balanced when they come off the machine.

As far as tire wear, the front tires get the typical heel-and-toe wear at the very outside of the tread area that I've experienced on the front of all of my vehicles. Though I've never had the alignment checked, I believe it to be good. Yes, this is an assumption on my part, but I believe the likelihood of alignment problems to be less than tire/balancing machine problems. I could be wrong.

I believe my first step will be going back to Sam's to have them balance the tires again. And I'll let them put the clip-on weights on the wheels. If they turn out good, I'll ensure that they don't touch the weights again. (I've never had to have a set of tires re-balanced before, these are the first.) Else, the local Chrysler dealer has a Hunter GSP9700 machine and their road force balance service is only $49.99 for the four tires. That's not a bad price compared to some other stores, so I think that'd be my next step.

 

[CapriRacer]

Jason,

If the tires have heel and toe wear on the very outside of the tires, then I would disagree as to which is the major problem - the balance machine or the alignment.

Plus, the "check spin" should reveal if the tape on balance weight system is faulty. Once they put on the weights, the balance machine will tell them if more is needed.

I would recommend against getting the "Hunter" treatment. Not because I don't think the machine is superior, but because you've got an older vehicle and probably don't need a perfectly smooth ride - and the net effect is that this is not going to fix the problem.

And respond to an earlier comment: The Hunter GSP9700 does something that the old balance machines did not do - measure uniformity - which not at all related to balance. And with some of today's vehicles, that is the only way to tell where the vibration is coming from.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Capri, I don't think I'm understanding what you're saying. Are you not sure whether the machine is at fault or the alignment?

The vehicle is an '07 Town & Country, and is the wife's van. Plus, I'm extremely sensitive to ride vibrations. A 100% smooth ride (from the tires anyway) is a must. To me, a road force balancer will only confirm or eliminate the tires as a concern. If the tires/wheels are demonstrated to be good, then I can move on to look at other causes.

What is your recommendation? Should I first have Sam's re-balance using the clip-on weights (this is free to me, so why not, right)? If that STILL doesn't fix it, then I guess I'm at a crossroad. It could be a bad tire. Or it could be bad alignment. The wear pattern I have on the front tires is the same that I've had on pretty much every vehicle I've owned, so I'm pretty sure that it's not out of spec (though it still may not be optimal).

 

[CapriRacer]

Jason,

I had forgotten about the Hunter GSP9700's diagnostic capability - particularly now that I know you are concerned about things other than tire related vibration.

So let me give you a diagnostic pathway.

1) Determine if you feel the vibration in the steering wheel (front tires) or in the seat (rear tires).

2) Swap the tires front to rear, If the problem is tires and wheels, the vibration will move. If it doesn't move it is something else.

3) If the problem is tires and wheel, find a Hunter GSP9700.

 

[sasilverbullet]

Or you can just get the Hunter Road-Force...

 

[Hokiefyd]

I'm half embarassed to say that I think I mis-diagnosed my problem after the latest tire balance. I drove it 65 MPH on a divided road where the speed limit is 50, and everyone drives about 60. So the road wasn't really intended for those speeds anyway (so it's not interstate-smooth), and the van's softer suspension tends to "reverberate" over some of the really small bumps, making it feel like the tires had a vibration in them.

I drove the van last night down a US highway, probably with a better road construction, and didn't really feel anything objectionable. I drove it up to about 68 MPH, and at about 65, I *think* I could feel a tiny vibration trying to build, but again, it could have been the road also...and I was REALLY trying to feel something. It's not something I'd have noticed if I wasn't looking for it.

Regarding where the vibration is, I couldn't really specify if it was front or rear. It just felt like "all" of them were a bit out. Which might make it more likely that I was feeling something in the road or the cushy suspension rather than the tires themselves.

Thanks again to all. I'll update this thread back if the vibrations return, and/or I have the tires balanced or road force balanced.

 

[JohnG]

In my experience, this is a classic rf balance issue! The out of balance (not round) tire seems to move around the vehicle as speed varies, and your never quite sure which tire is causing the problem.

For wilix, until you've had a problem solved by a Hunter RF machine, you will probably remain skeptical. For those of us that have had issues fixed by the machine, we belive in it.

I can assure you that it works.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Yes, it most definitely works. Also, some vehicles are more sensitive to that kind of stuff than others. Certain FWD GM chassis (like some late model FWD Cadillacs, Pontiac Bonnevilles, etc) are EXTREMELY sensitive, and a road force balance is almost a must. GM actually has a revised front lower control arm with a hydro bushing to reduce some of those vehicles' sensitivity to road force issues.