Timing - BTC, ATC and carb

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Okay. I'm working on it right now, so chime in and I'll do what you suggest.

Another question - When I set the timing to 10 degrees BTC like the factory spec says, it pings.

So I would need to "retard" it, which would be more degrees, yes?
 
Originally Posted By: sasilverbullet


So I would need to "retard" it, which would be more degrees, yes?

Less timing would be to go from 10BTDC to say 6BTDC. What octain is the gas thats in it now. I'm going to stick to my earlier post......Your going to have a hard time getting that 10-1 compression Big Block to run decient on todays gas.

Running Premium is going to be necessary and you may have to juice it up with high octain race gas.

Do you have a dial back timing light? Thats going to be necessary to check total timing. For all we know the weights and springs in that rebuilt Distributer are worn out and over advancing the timing at higher RPM's.
 
Set to 8 BTDC - pings badly on both the ported and manifold ports. Pings somewhat less on the ported side.

Here's what's confusing me - with the vacuum advance disconnected entirely (yes, the ports plugged) at 8 BTDC it doesn't ping at all! It seems to be running okay, lot's of pickup, not popping, no hesitation, except ever-so-slightly off idle. Otherwise runs super.

This is a rebuilt dist - is the vacuum advance bad? It seems to be advancing WAY to much.

Ideas?
 
Originally Posted By: sasilverbullet

Here's what's confusing me - with the vacuum advance disconnected entirely (yes, the ports plugged) at 8 BTDC it doesn't ping at all! It seems to be running okay, lot's of pickup, not popping, no hesitation, except ever-so-slightly off idle. Otherwise runs super.


How does it do a WOT 0-60 run with the hose connected? Should feel no different, as there's no vacuum at WOT.

FTR, running super rich will cure ping sometimes by the extra fuel taking heat out of the combustion by evaporating.
 
I just looked this engine up in my old car book.

360hp 460 with 10.5:1 compression!

Lets add in 40 years of carbon and assume that it's now running 11:1 compression along with a huge bore and iron heads.

The smaller the bore the less time fuel has to preignite. Late model Aluminum heads radiate heat much better than iron heads.

Aluminum heads along with todays Fuel injection, knock sensors ,small bores and computer adjusted timing will allow high compression.

I firmly believe that this car will not run correctly on todays pump gas. It has everything against it and retarding the timing is just going to make it miserable to drive and more of a gas hog than it already is.

At this point I wouldn't bother with trying to tune it untill I had some high octain race fuel in it. W/O the proper fuel were just spinning our wheels.
 
You want more fuel or more advance.
The accelerator pump is the first thing at this point.
But WHEN was it pinging before?
Adjusting your advance curve may be a solution.
 
The 385 series are more tolerant than a B.B chevy as far as octane. I would definetly check total advance though.
 
Current situation - doesn't ping at all at 8 BTDC and no vacuum advance, and pings terribly with the vacuum advance connected.

That's a "new" rebuilt dist from O'Reilly (cardone brand) and I don't think the vacuum advance is adjustable.

Goal today is to determine if current dist's vacuum advance is adjustable - if so, I'll adjust it. If not, then see if I can get a adjustable vacuum advance, or another dist with an adjustable vacuum advance.

I'm pretty confident once I get an adjustable vacuum advance on there I'll be able to tweak all the pinging out, hopefully!
smile.gif


Chris - I think you have a point on the gas, but I don't think it's as pronounced as you may think. Factory spec is 10 BTDC - the fact that it pings some at 10 and none at 8 is where I think the fuel/age of engine comes into play. As stated above, I'm pretty sure the adjustable vacuum advance will fix my problems. Also, I ran 1/2 can of sea foam through the carb 3 months ago and I think I cleaned out any massive carbon buildup. I looked through the plug holes and the cylinders looked very clean after that.
 
Originally Posted By: sasilverbullet
Current situation - doesn't ping at all at 8 BTDC and no vacuum advance, and pings terribly with the vacuum advance connected.



And you said it pings even at WOT??? The vacuum advance should NOT be in play at WOT. Sounds like the vacuum advance is just dialing in its advance with almost no vacuum. As another poster said, some of them are adjustable with an allen wrench inserted through the vacuum nipple- give that a try. IIRC, counter-clockwise usually raises the vacuum level needed to engage the advance, but I'm not sure about yours in particular. Or you could try another distributor altogether. Or you could run without vacuum advance if you want- vacuum advance mainly boosts fuel economy at cruise and doesn't do much for ultimate performance

To really get the most out of your engine, you can throw the shop manual timing procedure out the window and tune to total advance. Somewhere you should be able to find the total mechanical advance that your 460 "likes" (with big-block wedge head Mopars, its around 36 degrees for example... Lima big-block Fords also have a typical number but I don't know what it is). Use a dial-back timing light and set the timing to the total advance with the engine revved up so that all the mechanical advance is engaged. Then let the timing at idle fall where it may, set the idle speed, and then either use or don't use vacuum advance. You can also get fancy and weld up the advance slots to reduce the total advance change from idle to full speed and play with the advance springs to change the rate at which the timing comes in. Fun stuff... and can get pretty involved since every setting affects every other setting.
 
Originally Posted By: sasilverbullet
Sorry, it does NOT ping at all WOT, vacuum advance or not.



OK, so the vac. advance does release at some point. Sounds like its just too aggressive at applying advance for mid-range vacuum. If its adjustable, give that a try.
 
Originally Posted By: sasilverbullet


What are the problems with running no vacuum advance?
The Vacuum advance is supposed to add a few degrees of timing to help improve gas milage.

The more you can advance the timing(Within reason)the better MPG it will get.
 
Two carb systems are working here.
Idle system and power system.
The accelerator pump should squirt a shot of fuel as the carb is transitioning from the idle circuit to the power circuit,to cover up this bog.
Most likely not getting enough of a shot of fuel or poor quality fuel or a worn/dirty carb.
 
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Originally Posted By: sasilverbullet


What are the problems with running no vacuum advance?
The Vacuum advance is supposed to add a few degrees of timing to help improve gas milage.

The more you can advance the timing(Within reason)the better MPG it will get.


+1.

And the extra advance under light loading lowers the exhaust gas temperature BECAUSE the fuel is more nearly finished burning before the exhaust valve opens. I generally like to keep vacuum advance on a street car, but I've known lots of guys to disconnect it just like they would a strip-only car and they've had no problems... other than at the gas pump
 
OMG, I can't believe the advice here!

It's not a vacuum advance it's actually a vacuum RETARD! It pulls timing under throttle.

The weights/springs setup inside the dist advances timing based on rpm.

Pulllleeeeaaaze!

At least Skygod got it right.
 
My aunt had a 1970 Ford and I distinctly remember the owner's manual recommending a minimum of 98 Research octane for the high compression V8s that year, 94 Research for the low compression V8s and sixes. I'll bet the Lincoln spec for 1970 was the same. 98 Research octane is roughly the same as 93-94 R+M/2 pump octane in the US and Canada today. I believe the rest of the world still uses the old Research scale (always 4-5 numbers higher than current US pumps.) Today's gas is indeed marginal at best - I know some areas can't even get 93 R+M/2 nowadays.

That being said, I'll bet that Cardone reman distributor has the vacuum advance can set up to provide too much part throttle advance. I believe there is an Allen screw inside the vacuum advance can's hose nipple that can be adjusted. Try turning it counterclockwise 1/4 turn at a time to see if you can reduce the vacuum advance and the pinging. It is worth a try... Good luck - the Mark III was always a personal favorite for me.
 
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