Timing belt water pump problems Kia Sephia 97 1.8

[clarkflower]

I am a broke single father and I have a 110k kia sephia 97 1.8 and my water pump started leaking.

Pep Boys quoted me 450 labor 4.5 hours which was my entire savings. Wanting to buy Christmas presents for my sons I spoke with a friend from out of town who is/was a mechanic.He could do my water pump for labor of $200

It turned to be a huge job with the crank bolt not coming out and no room to work.
He had me hold the cam shaft while he turned the crank bold and twice there was a lot pop. He said that was the belt slipping a tooth. I saw no damage.
The crank bolt never did come out so we could not do the belt.

We had a heck of a time getting the timing correct with the exhaust cam always seeming to be pointing about 2 notches off to the right. Finally he said he got it and asked me to rotate the crank twice so we could check one final time. I stopped on the crank timing marks and both cams marks were pointed straight down which would have been opposite. He said that was the down stroke. (He never checked the piston for TDC when we set it the first time)

The car started right up but seems to have rattles, vibrations and noises.
There is no missing or backfires
On the highway at 55MPH on the way home it seemed smooth but getting off the highway when I let off the gas it had many new odd vibrations and idle going up and down although at the light it seemed to get normal. Coming off the light more new rattles but no missing.

I am curious if he set the timing in reverse?

 

[yonyon]

It really wouldn't matter if the timing were 360° off. That fixes itself during cranking. A vibration that you feel might well be from one cam being a tooth or two off. That vibration could also cause some noises. This sort of thing tends to happen when one tries to align the timing marks ignoring the slack in the belt. Get someone else to fix it.

Edit:
Realistically you can't just go by the vibration and sound to judge what is wrong. It's quite possible you've got a cover or a motor mount left loose or broken.

 

[clarkflower]

Thanks yonyon.

I have one question re That fixes itself during cranking.

Are we talking about off 360 or 180?
The two cam wheels are supposed to be straight up at TDC
I am thinking he had them straight up at bottom dead center.
Would the car even run?

Thanks,

 

[yonyon]

One full rotation of the crank is equal to one half rotation of the cams. It would run and would not be in any way incorrect.

 

[kschachn]

Wow. OK I understand your financial situation and I know this doesn't help directly, but holding the cam sprocket is not the right way to secure the engine to remove the crank bolt. Even with a chain and not a belt it can cause damage.

I would say that with all the trouble you had in getting the timing set, it is still not correct. Like yonyon said, vibration would be from it being somewhat off, like a tooth or more. I'm going to stick with the idea that it is still not set correctly.

I'm a bit confused on how you reset the timing. With the belt off by a couple of teeth, the only way you get it back is to remove the belt and install it properly. How did you do that?

You need a crankshaft holder to get that bolt out. Whatever you do, don't keep trying to remove it the way you did. You're going to seriously damage it way beyond the original $400 cost.

 

[JC1]

How can a mechanic not get a crankshaft bolt off? Shoot I did two timing belt jobs myself and
I was able to get the crankshaft bolts off. That's the toughest part of the job to do. You need the right impact gun and compressor of course.

I'm not here to get on your case. I totally understand your situation. It wasn't clear of what you guys did? Just change the water pump and leave the old belt? Is that possible in your car?

Not sure what you did to the exhaust cams. I hear the complaints about tight engine bays. A Toyota V6 is a total PITA in change the timing belt on. You cannot be in a rush to do these jobs.

Regards, JC.

 

[clarkflower]

Thanks kschachn.

When he first set it and got the tensioner square he had me spin it a few rotations and stop on TDC. You could see plain as day it was off a tooth (maybe two)
He did it again and got the same.
Did it a third time and to me it looked perfect.
We spun it 3 rotations with the tensioner tight and it still looked perfect

We wanted to put on a new belt and I had it but you can't get it off or the new one on without getting that crank bolt off. He started at 1:30 and it was slow and tight. It was 7 or 8 pm with the ac, power steering and alt all off that he saw the bolt would not come off
The belt would move around, it was just locked in from coming out

 

[Highline9]

Where you live? maybe I could give you a hand. I replaced water pump and timing belt in my hyundai. I live in hesperia.

 

[clarkflower]

It was tight tight tight and it seemed of 3 bolts holding 1 part in you had a 12mm as 13mm and a 14mm.
Trying to line up the 2.5 inch water pump pully in the 4 inch space and then to line up the three bolts and get them started seemed to take an hour alone

That is what we did. left the old belt on. It looked great. it would move all around,just locked in from coming off

He said get the belt but really he priced me on a water pump. The belt was not part of the deal.
He did not have an impact gun and compressor of course. He had a battery powered impact gun that seemed to do nothing.

 

[The_Eric]

Not to rag on you, and I totally understand the urge to dote on your kids, BUT a reliable and dependable car should come first. If you can't get to work to pay the bills, then everybody will suffer.

Countless times I've seen the results of someone who took it to a buddy or some random shade trade wrench turner (not that there aren't some really talented shade tree mechs), only to end up with another repair bill that in many cases, they couldn't afford because they blew their money on the first guy... And of course he won't stand behind his work, or compensate them for his mistakes.

Realize also that not all indy garages and dealers are created equal. Some shops (indy or dealer), I wouldn't trust to fix a peanut butter sandwich, let alone a car. Some are totally competent. As such, I would approach Pep Boys with caution.

 

[clarkflower]

Thanks Highline9
I'm in Santa Ana
I would like to see if I can find a way to tell if it's off before ripping it all apart

 

[The_Eric]

You'll have to take the upper plastic cover off and verify the cam marks. The crank will likely have a mark on the damper/pulley and corresponding mark on the plastic cover. Line the 0 up on the crank and check the cam gears.

Remember that 2 turns of the crank equals one turn of the cam, so you may have to rotate the crank 1 complete revolution to get the cam gear markings to where they need to be.

 

[kschachn]

IF it did jump teeth while trying to remove the crank bolt, then it IS off. No two ways about it, there's no way for it to fix itself. The belt determines the timing and if the crank moved independent to the cam then the timing is off. End of story.

You don't need an impact wrench to remove that bolt. In fact, I am anti-impact wrench minded when it comes to crank bolts. I know a lot of people do it that way but I just don't like jerking the valvetrain around as you wail on the bolt with some huge impact wrench. That's just me. I bought a 3/4" breaker bar at HF and with a length of pipe I have never wished that I used my impact wrench instead. You do need the application-specific crankshaft holder but generally those aren't all that expensive. Besides, you need the holder to reinstall the bolt properly.

You also need the service manual information to tell you how to put it back together. Some people guess at the meaning of the marks and the belt locations but once again that's not my suggestion. For me there's too much work involved and too much risk in having to do it twice or more. If it was an interference engine you could bend the valves or break a piston by having the timing off.


Originally Posted By: clarkflower
I would like to see if I can find a way to tell if it's off before ripping it all apart

 

[clarkflower]

Thanks. It really seems to run well.
Getting into it I see the motor mount is missing a few bolts.
It was bad but at 9:30 PM and my only car apart at work I had no way to get a new one.
Leaving to get one right now. Back in 1 hour

 

[clarkflower]

Seems like the new motor mount and tightening three bolts he had loose got rid of all the issues.
Merry Christmas and thanks to all!

 

[Highline9]

Look at belt from top of engine cover. This engine will hit valves if belt breaks. To verify that timing is right all plastic covers come off. If this is like my hyundai job was not that hard. I got it done with a 6 pak.

 

[Highline9]

http://www.justanswer.com/car/1h9fg-need-timing-marks-1997-kia-sephia-1-8-liter-ls-timing.html

 

[clarkflower]

Originally Posted By: Highline9
http://www.justanswer.com/car/1h9fg-need-timing-marks-1997-kia-sephia-1-8-liter-ls-timing.html


Best thread I have seen on the job.