If gasoline were $4 a gallon like the yuros pay then EtOH would make sense - otherwise it's just a farmer subsidy... I burn my used oil - smell the carbon credits LOL the weed guys LOVE CO2 why shouldn't corn?
Thumbing my nose at OPEC
- Thread starter G-MAN
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Where have you been? The federal subsidy expired in January.
Oil or ng we need to embrace production in the us, this ng boom created alot of jobs we are now losing, with 500yrs worth of ng, and the utica out in ohio for oil AND ng, we will always pay alot for it because corporations like to fix the prices
500 years...at current useage...
throw in exponential growth, and that 500 becomes less than 100. Throw in utilisation for non traditional gas uses, and it's decades.
Sustainability is ultimately trying to balance our solar budget...perpetual economic growth will mean that we can never budget.
throw in exponential growth, and that 500 becomes less than 100. Throw in utilisation for non traditional gas uses, and it's decades.
Sustainability is ultimately trying to balance our solar budget...perpetual economic growth will mean that we can never budget.
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Astro14
I am not certain that you're thumbing your nose at anything...it takes nearly a gallon of diesel to make two gallons of ethanol...diesel that had to come from the oil that is both domestic and imported...
You would use the same proportion of domestic/import if you drove gasoline or diesel...but with E85, you will also manage to remove quite a bit of corn from the food supply, raising food prices...
You need to do your homework on domestic ethanol production. What you've written here is utter nonsense.
I've done my homework - simple thermodynamics: have to convert petro to fertilizer, have to fuel the tractor, the combine, the truck to transport the corn and then make the electricity to run the plant to convert it. Lots of energy goes into the production of ethanol from corn.
Net energy gain, when all the factors are added up: pretty close to zero...
It would have been equally effective, not to mention simpler, to just run a diesel vehicle, and left the land in food production. All that's been accomplished is converting one fuel to another, with no real gain in energy...
You're not denying that using food for fuel reduces the food supply, are you? Or that land used for ethanol production isn't taken out of food production? Simple math again...finite number of arable acres...
I do have one question, though, why is a thread on alternative fuel in the passenger car motor oil section?
Originally Posted By: Astro14
I am not certain that you're thumbing your nose at anything...it takes nearly a gallon of diesel to make two gallons of ethanol...diesel that had to come from the oil that is both domestic and imported...
You would use the same proportion of domestic/import if you drove gasoline or diesel...but with E85, you will also manage to remove quite a bit of corn from the food supply, raising food prices...
You need to do your homework on domestic ethanol production. What you've written here is utter nonsense.
I've done my homework - simple thermodynamics: have to convert petro to fertilizer, have to fuel the tractor, the combine, the truck to transport the corn and then make the electricity to run the plant to convert it. Lots of energy goes into the production of ethanol from corn.
Net energy gain, when all the factors are added up: pretty close to zero...
It would have been equally effective, not to mention simpler, to just run a diesel vehicle, and left the land in food production. All that's been accomplished is converting one fuel to another, with no real gain in energy...
You're not denying that using food for fuel reduces the food supply, are you? Or that land used for ethanol production isn't taken out of food production? Simple math again...finite number of arable acres...
I do have one question, though, why is a thread on alternative fuel in the passenger car motor oil section?
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According to Iowa State University because of ethanol the US used 4.6% less gasoline. For what that is worth.
Sure we used less gasoline...but we didn't import less oil...we replaced gasoline with ethanol, that used diesel in its production.
Did imports of oil go down during that time? Nope...
So, we're turning petroleum into ethanol, changing the mix of what goes in our cars, while increasing usage of other petroleum products elsewhere in the supply chain, but we're not importing any less oil...so, running the flex fuel car is going to do what to OPEC exactly?
Oh, that's right, nothing...
Did imports of oil go down during that time? Nope...
So, we're turning petroleum into ethanol, changing the mix of what goes in our cars, while increasing usage of other petroleum products elsewhere in the supply chain, but we're not importing any less oil...so, running the flex fuel car is going to do what to OPEC exactly?
Oh, that's right, nothing...
Just read post #2676397 and you will see what I think about it.
One other point - the Iowa state study covered 2005 through 2009...during which there was a recession, and large increases in oil prices...so, the gasoline consumption reduction could be largely due to the cost...
Further, since we import more oil from Canada than any other nation (Saudi Arabia is second, then Mexico), if your thesis on saving oil by burning corn ethanol were correct, then you would be thumbing your nose at our neighbors to the North...
I am sure the Alberta BITOG contingent will understand...
Further, since we import more oil from Canada than any other nation (Saudi Arabia is second, then Mexico), if your thesis on saving oil by burning corn ethanol were correct, then you would be thumbing your nose at our neighbors to the North...
I am sure the Alberta BITOG contingent will understand...
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I do not believe are Canadian contingent is too concern. In all probability our "Northern Brothers" look at us as pretty well all kinds of jacked up for the immediate future.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: kender
As long as Americans continue to drive "living rooms on wheels" (I can't take credit for that line. Read it here somewhere), OPEC will be the one's thumbing their noses at us. Driving vehicles that get better MPG's will do more than E85 gas, G-oil, or Nextgen oil. Now for the replies saying "You can't tell me what to drive". And this is true. But, if this country wants to be less dependent on foreign oil, driving Civics, Corollas, etc. is the way to do it. They can keep their SMART cars though.
LOL!!! Oh man that had me rolling on the floor. As Americans we are more dependent on other Petroleum products not just as a fuel oil.
Yeah, what was I thinking?......Use less resources to reduce the amount of oil we import?.....why....that would be.....unamerican!!!
Let's see....If I can drive 400 miles in my Civic on a little more than 10 gallons of gasoline(highway), and the guy next door with the huge 4 door pickup, SUV, Hummer,whatever "look at me" oversize vehicle with TruckNutz hanging off the hitch needs 20 gallons to drive the same 400 miles.......?????
Yep, you're right bud, using less gasoline through better fuel economy would make no difference in the amount of oil we consume/import. LMAO!!!
Originally Posted By: kender
As long as Americans continue to drive "living rooms on wheels" (I can't take credit for that line. Read it here somewhere), OPEC will be the one's thumbing their noses at us. Driving vehicles that get better MPG's will do more than E85 gas, G-oil, or Nextgen oil. Now for the replies saying "You can't tell me what to drive". And this is true. But, if this country wants to be less dependent on foreign oil, driving Civics, Corollas, etc. is the way to do it. They can keep their SMART cars though.
LOL!!! Oh man that had me rolling on the floor. As Americans we are more dependent on other Petroleum products not just as a fuel oil.
Yeah, what was I thinking?......Use less resources to reduce the amount of oil we import?.....why....that would be.....unamerican!!!
Let's see....If I can drive 400 miles in my Civic on a little more than 10 gallons of gasoline(highway), and the guy next door with the huge 4 door pickup, SUV, Hummer,whatever "look at me" oversize vehicle with TruckNutz hanging off the hitch needs 20 gallons to drive the same 400 miles.......?????
Yep, you're right bud, using less gasoline through better fuel economy would make no difference in the amount of oil we consume/import. LMAO!!!
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Originally Posted By: Astro14
Sure we used less gasoline...but we didn't import less oil...we replaced gasoline with ethanol, that used diesel in its production.
We didn't import less oil for two reasons: crude is used for other things besides gasoline. And consumption is up.
I'm all for alternative feedstocks for ethanol production. The market will determine what is the happy median between corn used for fuel and corn used for food. Keep in mind, however, that the corn used for ethanol is not the same type corn grown for human food production. It's feed-grade corn used to make livestock feed. And even for what is used to produce ethanol, approximately 30% of every bushel is returned to make livestock feed in the form of distillers grain.
Sure we used less gasoline...but we didn't import less oil...we replaced gasoline with ethanol, that used diesel in its production.
We didn't import less oil for two reasons: crude is used for other things besides gasoline. And consumption is up.
I'm all for alternative feedstocks for ethanol production. The market will determine what is the happy median between corn used for fuel and corn used for food. Keep in mind, however, that the corn used for ethanol is not the same type corn grown for human food production. It's feed-grade corn used to make livestock feed. And even for what is used to produce ethanol, approximately 30% of every bushel is returned to make livestock feed in the form of distillers grain.
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
. The market will determine what is the happy median between corn used for fuel and corn used for food...
Which market? Oh I know it must be the one created by government to mandate 10% ethanol in gas and soon 15% to prop up corn producing states. The are the ones lobbying for even greater ethanol blends leading to their target E85. Whatever sugarcoating you use, you're deluding yourself if you think you're making a difference in oil consumption.
We've been fed the same lies for over 20+ years how we need to reduce our foreign oil dependence, but nothing but opposite was/is happening. We closed up our oil supplies, came up with ethanol scam and our foreign oil dependence is greater than ever.
Yet nothing is being done to promote huge reserves we have of natural gas, coal and oil.
BREAD AND CIRCUSES!
. The market will determine what is the happy median between corn used for fuel and corn used for food...
Which market? Oh I know it must be the one created by government to mandate 10% ethanol in gas and soon 15% to prop up corn producing states. The are the ones lobbying for even greater ethanol blends leading to their target E85. Whatever sugarcoating you use, you're deluding yourself if you think you're making a difference in oil consumption.
We've been fed the same lies for over 20+ years how we need to reduce our foreign oil dependence, but nothing but opposite was/is happening. We closed up our oil supplies, came up with ethanol scam and our foreign oil dependence is greater than ever.
Yet nothing is being done to promote huge reserves we have of natural gas, coal and oil.
BREAD AND CIRCUSES!
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
. The market will determine what is the happy median between corn used for fuel and corn used for food...
Which market? Oh I know it must be the one created by government to mandate 10% ethanol in gas and soon 15% to prop up corn producing states. The are the ones lobbying for even greater ethanol blends leading to their target E85. Whatever sugarcoating you use, you're deluding yourself if you think you're making a difference in oil consumption.
We've been fed the same lies for over 20+ years how we need to reduce our foreign oil dependence, but nothing but opposite was/is happening. We closed up our oil supplies, came up with ethanol scam and our foreign oil dependence is greater than ever.
Yet nothing is being done to promote huge reserves we have of natural gas, coal and oil.
BREAD AND CIRCUSES!
I'm not foolish enough to think ethanol could ever replace crude based fuels in this country. You are absolutely correct that we need to exploit domestic oil reserves, but even that won't solve anything if that oil is just placed on the global market. Oil produced domestically should remain here for domestic use, but I fear that will never happen. The oil market is a global market and whatever we produce here will just be a part of that market.
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
. The market will determine what is the happy median between corn used for fuel and corn used for food...
Which market? Oh I know it must be the one created by government to mandate 10% ethanol in gas and soon 15% to prop up corn producing states. The are the ones lobbying for even greater ethanol blends leading to their target E85. Whatever sugarcoating you use, you're deluding yourself if you think you're making a difference in oil consumption.
We've been fed the same lies for over 20+ years how we need to reduce our foreign oil dependence, but nothing but opposite was/is happening. We closed up our oil supplies, came up with ethanol scam and our foreign oil dependence is greater than ever.
Yet nothing is being done to promote huge reserves we have of natural gas, coal and oil.
BREAD AND CIRCUSES!
I'm not foolish enough to think ethanol could ever replace crude based fuels in this country. You are absolutely correct that we need to exploit domestic oil reserves, but even that won't solve anything if that oil is just placed on the global market. Oil produced domestically should remain here for domestic use, but I fear that will never happen. The oil market is a global market and whatever we produce here will just be a part of that market.
Isn't OPEC pretty much self-beating?
Originally Posted By: kender
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: kender
As long as Americans continue to drive "living rooms on wheels" (I can't take credit for that line. Read it here somewhere), OPEC will be the one's thumbing their noses at us. Driving vehicles that get better MPG's will do more than E85 gas, G-oil, or Nextgen oil. Now for the replies saying "You can't tell me what to drive". And this is true. But, if this country wants to be less dependent on foreign oil, driving Civics, Corollas, etc. is the way to do it. They can keep their SMART cars though.
LOL!!! Oh man that had me rolling on the floor. As Americans we are more dependent on other Petroleum products not just as a fuel oil.
Yeah, what was I thinking?......Use less resources to reduce the amount of oil we import?.....why....that would be.....unamerican!!!
Let's see....If I can drive 400 miles in my Civic on a little more than 10 gallons of gasoline(highway), and the guy next door with the huge 4 door pickup, SUV, Hummer,whatever "look at me" oversize vehicle with TruckNutz hanging off the hitch needs 20 gallons to drive the same 400 miles.......?????
Yep, you're right bud, using less gasoline through better fuel economy would make no difference in the amount of oil we consume/import. LMAO!!!
Yeah I think you need to research what you stated before. The US is producing less per barrel of crude for gasoline but Jet Fuel, Distillate, and Pet Coke volumes are up. Our economy will just fill the void for other petroleum products. But I do agree it would be more prudent to diversify energy sources.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: kender
As long as Americans continue to drive "living rooms on wheels" (I can't take credit for that line. Read it here somewhere), OPEC will be the one's thumbing their noses at us. Driving vehicles that get better MPG's will do more than E85 gas, G-oil, or Nextgen oil. Now for the replies saying "You can't tell me what to drive". And this is true. But, if this country wants to be less dependent on foreign oil, driving Civics, Corollas, etc. is the way to do it. They can keep their SMART cars though.
LOL!!! Oh man that had me rolling on the floor. As Americans we are more dependent on other Petroleum products not just as a fuel oil.
Yeah, what was I thinking?......Use less resources to reduce the amount of oil we import?.....why....that would be.....unamerican!!!
Let's see....If I can drive 400 miles in my Civic on a little more than 10 gallons of gasoline(highway), and the guy next door with the huge 4 door pickup, SUV, Hummer,whatever "look at me" oversize vehicle with TruckNutz hanging off the hitch needs 20 gallons to drive the same 400 miles.......?????
Yep, you're right bud, using less gasoline through better fuel economy would make no difference in the amount of oil we consume/import. LMAO!!!
Yeah I think you need to research what you stated before. The US is producing less per barrel of crude for gasoline but Jet Fuel, Distillate, and Pet Coke volumes are up. Our economy will just fill the void for other petroleum products. But I do agree it would be more prudent to diversify energy sources.
I always wondered what if you were rear ended by a drunken driver with natural gas???
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
I always wondered what if you were rear ended by a drunken driver with natural gas???
Not much, if you're worried about the CNG. CNG and LPG tanks are built much, much more strongly than gasoline tanks. The average gasoline tank can be pierced with a sharp awl. Try that with a CNG or LPG tank, and let me know how it goes.
I always wondered what if you were rear ended by a drunken driver with natural gas???
Not much, if you're worried about the CNG. CNG and LPG tanks are built much, much more strongly than gasoline tanks. The average gasoline tank can be pierced with a sharp awl. Try that with a CNG or LPG tank, and let me know how it goes.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Astro14
I am not certain that you're thumbing your nose at anything...it takes nearly a gallon of diesel to make two gallons of ethanol...diesel that had to come from the oil that is both domestic and imported...
You would use the same proportion of domestic/import if you drove gasoline or diesel...but with E85, you will also manage to remove quite a bit of corn from the food supply, raising food prices...
You need to do your homework on domestic ethanol production. What you've written here is utter nonsense.
Please school us!
The only way to beat OPEC is hybrid and electric cars or public transportation.
No, it's not the only way at all. One huge solution in the USA is that we we can develop the massive oil fields we already know about. It is not 'Jed Clampett -Beverly Hillbillies' oil that gushes to the top, but we have loads the gov't presently is fighting to keep unused.
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Astro14
I am not certain that you're thumbing your nose at anything...it takes nearly a gallon of diesel to make two gallons of ethanol...diesel that had to come from the oil that is both domestic and imported...
You would use the same proportion of domestic/import if you drove gasoline or diesel...but with E85, you will also manage to remove quite a bit of corn from the food supply, raising food prices...
You need to do your homework on domestic ethanol production. What you've written here is utter nonsense.
Please school us!
The only way to beat OPEC is hybrid and electric cars or public transportation.
No, it's not the only way at all. One huge solution in the USA is that we we can develop the massive oil fields we already know about. It is not 'Jed Clampett -Beverly Hillbillies' oil that gushes to the top, but we have loads the gov't presently is fighting to keep unused.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
I always wondered what if you were rear ended by a drunken driver with natural gas???
Not much, if you're worried about the CNG. CNG and LPG tanks are built much, much more strongly than gasoline tanks. The average gasoline tank can be pierced with a sharp awl. Try that with a CNG or LPG tank, and let me know how it goes.
All of the LPG tanks I have seen used were either aluminum or maybe 1/8" steel, they were nothing like CNG tanks. But I am compairing industrial (fork lift) and home brew LPG to certified CNG tanks.
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
I always wondered what if you were rear ended by a drunken driver with natural gas???
Not much, if you're worried about the CNG. CNG and LPG tanks are built much, much more strongly than gasoline tanks. The average gasoline tank can be pierced with a sharp awl. Try that with a CNG or LPG tank, and let me know how it goes.
All of the LPG tanks I have seen used were either aluminum or maybe 1/8" steel, they were nothing like CNG tanks. But I am compairing industrial (fork lift) and home brew LPG to certified CNG tanks.
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