Thoughts on oils for GDI + MPI with EGR

[SC Maintenance]

I have a 2019 Rav4 with GDI + MPI which also has a EGR system. I have not had an EGR valve before - I thought they died in the 70's?

These engines are not known to burn oil. LSPI does not seem to be an issue because its likely running on MPI at that point? I am thinking about both the EGR valve staying clean along with intake valve carbon - even with the part time MPI it might not stay perfect.

I know it likely doesn't matter - I run 5K OCI max - but I am switching this to a 30 weight and have some space on the shelf to stock up with current or future rebates.

What would you run and why?

FWIW - this is what Toyota-Club had to say about the EGR, but this engine has been around since 2018 in the Camry and I have not heard of any issues?

"EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) - inevitable evil, which serves (in theory) to lower the
combustion temperature and to reduce the nitrogen oxides in the exhaust gas, but in
practice it provides only common problems with carbon deposits in the intake paths and
on the valves. Soon let's see whether it is possible to shut off it without consequences
(at least, there is no feedback by EGR temperature sensor here)."

 

[The Lube Guy]

I have two Pentastar engines with very problematic and aggressive EGR programming, which causes engine failure under low load conditions.

To mitigate the intake contamination, I installed oil catch cans on both engines after the first year of ownership. While replacing the oil filter housing on both engines with aftermarket aluminum units, I noticed the combined effects of EGR gas and PCV deposits in the intake. This prompted me to install the oil catch cans.

I assume you are not experiencing issues with the EGR causing your engine to fail under low loads. To address this problem, I installed a ported throttle body on one engine and a HEMI throttle body on the other, using an adapter plate and cable. Additionally, I installed cold air intakes on both engines and pre-filters on the filters.

In my experience, working around the EGR without deleting it was both expensive and time-consuming, requiring significant effort to address the issue without EGR deletion. There are still tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of Pentastar engines with this issue, which FCA/Stellantis has not adequately addressed. They recalled a small number of vehicles with this engine for the exact EGR issue I described. Many owners may be unaware of this problem as it only occurs under specific low-load conditions.

In your case, if your engine is functioning well, it is advisable to leave it as is. However, installing an oil catch can could be beneficial. It will help keep the intake clean and maintain the fuel octane rating.

What would you run and why?

Mobil 1 EP HM 5W-30 is the best blend at a very affordable price point. It's PAO+mPAO+GTL+AN. For the money, it doesn't get any better.

 

[SC Maintenance]

I have two Pentastar engines with very problematic and aggressive EGR programming, which causes engine failure under low load conditions.

To mitigate the intake contamination, I installed oil catch cans on both engines after the first year of ownership. While replacing the oil filter housing on both engines with aftermarket aluminum units, I noticed the combined effects of EGR gas and PCV deposits in the intake. This prompted me to install the oil catch cans.

I assume you are not experiencing issues with the EGR causing your engine to fail under low loads. To address this problem, I installed a ported throttle body on one engine and a HEMI throttle body on the other, using an adapter plate and cable. Additionally, I installed cold air intakes on both engines and pre-filters on the filters.

In my experience, working around the EGR without deleting it was both expensive and time-consuming, requiring significant effort to address the issue without EGR deletion. There are still tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of Pentastar engines with this issue, which FCA/Stellantis has not adequately addressed. They recalled a small number of vehicles with this engine for the exact EGR issue I described. Many owners may be unaware of this problem as it only occurs under specific low-load conditions.

In your case, if your engine is functioning well, it is advisable to leave it as is. However, installing an oil catch can could be beneficial. It will help keep the intake clean and maintain the fuel octane rating.


Mobil 1 EP HM 5W-30 is the best blend at a very affordable price point. It's PAO+mPAO+GTL+AN. For the money, it doesn't get any better.

I have not heard of any EGR problems yet on the Toyota boards. The EGR goes through a cooler before the valve, and the valve is water cooled also - so maybe this helps?

A catch can might be a good idea - but I don't think there is a place to put it. The PCV is embedded under the intake manifold. I have heard of dealers recomending replacement at the 100K service. They Seems they are quoting $400 so it must be a couple hours labor? There are no hoses I can find.

 

[The Lube Guy]

I have not heard of any EGR problems yet on the Toyota boards. The EGR goes through a cooler before the valve, and the valve is water cooled also - so maybe this helps?

The Pentastar also has an EGR cooler, and coolant runs through it. In the Pentastar's case, I believe it's just bad programming. If you never experienced power loss, or the engine dying at low loads, then you're more than likely okay. I wouldn't worry about it. Toyota's implementation might be sound. Remember, this is FCA/Stellantis, lol.

If you can't install a catch can, then don't worry about it. Again, the Pentastar PUG has a pretty loose PCV valve, so to speak. It's how they are made, so it lets plenty of vapors into the system. I have found that not to be the case on Asian vehicles.

Mostly, I just wanted to share my experience with EGR. Personally, I don't like it. For many Diesel engines, EGR is the kiss of death, so to speak.

As for my oil recommendation, Mobil recently updated all their MSDS documents. The M1 EP HM 5W-30 is one of my favorite Energy Conserving off the shelf 5W-30 motor oils. The other ones are PUP 5W-30 and Castrol EDGE EP 5W-30. You can't go wrong with any of them. Here is the one for M1 EP HM 5W-30:

 

[ATex7239]

‘21 Toyota A25A hybrid here.

I use 0W16 or 0W20 of various brands for 5K and mostly use TT fuel. Occasionally if traveling or more convenient will use non-TT fuel. But not very often. I have used Techron and Gumout a few times.

The engine is using port only or port + DI for most situations (low and medium load/RPM) based on the chart below.

Fuel system (D-4S)

1 - ECM, 2 - fuel pressure sensor (high), 3 - fuel rail (high pressure), 4 - direct fuel injector, 5 - fuel delivery pipe with sensor (low pressure), 6 - port fuel injector, 7 - fuel pump ECU, 8 - fuel tank, 9 - fuel main valve (high pressure), 10 - fuel main valve assembly (low pressure), 11 - fuel filter, 12 - fuel pump (low pressure), 13 - fuel suction filter, 14 - fuel pump (high pressure), 15 - fuel sus filter, 16 - fuel pressure pulsation damper, 17 - spill control valve, 18 - check valve (60 kpa), 19 - fuel relief valve (26.4 MPa), 20 - exhaust camshaft.​

Fuel injection - combined: directly in the combustion chamber and multipoint in the inlet ports. At low to medium loads - combined injection is applied - homogeneous mixture increases the stability of the combustion process and reduces emissions. Under a heavy load use direct fuel injection - the evaporation of the fuel in the cylinder filling mass improves and reduces the tendency to knock.

1 - injection in port, 2 - injection in cylinder + port, 3 - injection in cylinder.​

- Stratified combustion mode. Fuel is supplied in the intake ports on the exhaust stroke. On the intake stroke after the opening of the valves in the cylinder receives a homogeneous lean mixture. At the end of the compression stroke, additional fuel is injected directly into the cylinder, allowing to enrich the mixture near the spark plug. This facilitates the initial ignition, is then distributed on the all lean mixture charge in the remaining volume of the combustion chamber. This mode is applied after a cold start to retard ignition timing and to increase the exhaust gas temperature for accelerate catalyst warming up.

- Homogenous mixture mode. Fuel is supplied in the intake ports on the expansion, exhaust and intake strokes. At the beginning of the intake stroke, additional fuel is injected directly into the cylinder and evenly mixed with the incoming charge. Homogeneous air-fuel mixture is compressed and then ignited. Due to the evaporation of injected fuel, air charge in the cylinder is cooled improves cylinder filling.

Toyota engines - A25·M20 - Dynamic Force series (R4)

Review of Toyota Dynamic Force engines design and components - inline-4 (M20A, A25A)

toyota-club.net

 

[JTK]

I didn't realize this vintage of Rav4 had port and direct injection. That's pretty cool, as I assume this keeps the backs of the intake valves much cleaner. EGR always seems like a step backwards to me, considering pretty much every engine has VVT now. At least she doesn't have the trifecta of doom, GDI, EGR and turbo! lol.

I'm kind of in the same boat looking for good oil for my new to me 2021 Equinox with the 1.5T. It's had dealer oil changes every 5K, but the underside of the oil fill cap was more carbony than I like.. Following this thread for sure.

 

[Analog-1]

I didn't realize this vintage of Rav4 had port and direct injection. That's pretty cool, as I assume this keeps the backs of the intake valves much cleaner. EGR always seems like a step backwards to me, considering pretty much every engine has VVT now. At least she doesn't have the trifecta of doom, GDI, EGR and turbo! lol.

I'm kind of in the same boat looking for good oil for my new to me 2021 Equinox with the 1.5T. It's had dealer oil changes every 5K, but the underside of the oil fill cap was more carbony than I like.. Following this thread for sure.

Try the new Valvoline Restore & Protect.

 

[The Lube Guy]

Try the new Valvoline Restore & Protect.

There's nothing wrong with that, it's good oil.

 

[edyvw]

I have a 2019 Rav4 with GDI + MPI which also has a EGR system. I have not had an EGR valve before - I thought they died in the 70's?

These engines are not known to burn oil. LSPI does not seem to be an issue because its likely running on MPI at that point? I am thinking about both the EGR valve staying clean along with intake valve carbon - even with the part time MPI it might not stay perfect.

I know it likely doesn't matter - I run 5K OCI max - but I am switching this to a 30 weight and have some space on the shelf to stock up with current or future rebates.

What would you run and why?

FWIW - this is what Toyota-Club had to say about the EGR, but this engine has been around since 2018 in the Camry and I have not heard of any issues?

"EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) - inevitable evil, which serves (in theory) to lower the
combustion temperature and to reduce the nitrogen oxides in the exhaust gas, but in
practice it provides only common problems with carbon deposits in the intake paths and
on the valves. Soon let's see whether it is possible to shut off it without consequences
(at least, there is no feedback by EGR temperature sensor here)."

No turbo=no LSPI.

 

[SC Maintenance]

No turbo=no LSPI.

Not very common outside turbo'd engines, but saying its only for turbo's is not 100% correct. Can and sometimes does happen in NA GDI engines, especially given the newer ones are running above 14:1 compression, sometimes affectively far above if there in Atkinson mode.

However as mentioned, for the Toyota Dynamic Force engine it seems not to be a problem at all.

 

[edyvw]

Not very common outside turbo'd engines, but saying its only for turbo's is not 100% correct. Can and sometimes does happen in NA GDI engines, especially given the newer ones are running above 14:1 compression, sometimes affectively far above if there in Atkinson mode.

However as mentioned, for the Toyota Dynamic Force engine it seems not to be a problem at all.

You need A LOT of boost at low rpms for LSPI.
Do you actually know ANY naturally aspirated engine where it happened?

 

[JTK]

Try the new Valvoline Restore & Protect.

I would if it had the silly dexos seal of approval on it.

I may actually follow the manufacturer recommendations until 60K miles. That's a new one for me.