exactly what i was thinking; i need to run 0w20 or 5w20 as thin as i can get away with considering durability, mpg and emission system integrity.
Thicker oil vs thin oil....again!
- Thread starter wolf_06
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hyundai recommends qs- maybe Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5w20 or Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 $20/$25 5qts @ Walmart; i have found that my hyundai loves 5w20 peppy response and hopefully shear stable for high mileage engines.
Yet there are owners on here that have read their UOA and from their data had a good guess that their bearings where starting to fail and acted accordingly.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2499161&page=1
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2499161&page=1
They're certainly helpful if one has a spike in lead or something like that. However, one can spend an eternity chasing ppms of iron for no good reason.
Originally Posted By: Garak
They're certainly helpful if one has a spike in lead or something like that. However, one can spend an eternity chasing ppms of iron for no good reason.
I wonder what buster has to say about that.
They're certainly helpful if one has a spike in lead or something like that. However, one can spend an eternity chasing ppms of iron for no good reason.
I wonder what buster has to say about that.
The biggest factor in UOA as Frank pointed out, IMO, is the integrity of any lab or their persons. Hopefully, you can trust that person you never meet to do their job well with tools/stations that don't allow human error to impact your sample (much).
Of course, we've had folks take multiple samples and get 2, sometimes 3 reports done on the same used oil(essentially). That is one way to cover yourself if ever in doubt; always take a 2nd sample in case. At least on the OCIs that 'matter' the most.
Of course, we've had folks take multiple samples and get 2, sometimes 3 reports done on the same used oil(essentially). That is one way to cover yourself if ever in doubt; always take a 2nd sample in case. At least on the OCIs that 'matter' the most.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Yet there are owners on here that have read their UOA and from their data had a good guess that their bearings where starting to fail and acted accordingly.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2499161&page=1
Some others not were not so lucky. Maybe the unlucky guys got a bad report. Remember member BuickGN? He wasn't so lucky. Many engine savvy guys can catch the start of a bad bearing by knowing the sound of their engine, and if it changes. We caught bad bearings in a Chevy powered boat by a change in engine sound. Then swapped them out, and had no problem at all. Saved on the cost of UOA reports too.
Yet there are owners on here that have read their UOA and from their data had a good guess that their bearings where starting to fail and acted accordingly.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2499161&page=1
Some others not were not so lucky. Maybe the unlucky guys got a bad report. Remember member BuickGN? He wasn't so lucky. Many engine savvy guys can catch the start of a bad bearing by knowing the sound of their engine, and if it changes. We caught bad bearings in a Chevy powered boat by a change in engine sound. Then swapped them out, and had no problem at all. Saved on the cost of UOA reports too.
Originally Posted By: Garak
They're certainly helpful if one has a spike in lead or something like that. However, one can spend an eternity chasing ppms of iron for no good reason.
Yep, early on I mentioned spikes in wear metals, assuming you get accurate data to go by.
They're certainly helpful if one has a spike in lead or something like that. However, one can spend an eternity chasing ppms of iron for no good reason.
Yep, early on I mentioned spikes in wear metals, assuming you get accurate data to go by.
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
The biggest factor in UOA as Frank pointed out, IMO, is the integrity of any lab or their persons. Hopefully, you can trust that person you never meet to do their job well with tools/stations that don't allow human error to impact your sample (much).
Of course, we've had folks take multiple samples and get 2, sometimes 3 reports done on the same used oil(essentially). That is one way to cover yourself if ever in doubt; always take a 2nd sample in case. At least on the OCIs that 'matter' the most.
You're right Jim. The only problem is cost, wouldn't it be great if the % of messed up reports was lower and you could actually be 99.99% confident you got good data the first time? Forget about them running the same sample a second time if you're doubtful. If the oil was actually switched in error you'd never know, in fact they can run that oil a dozen times and come up with exactly the same report. It could be swapped with a sample of the same oil used in another vehicle, at $25-$30 a report they must sample a lot of oil, and do it fast too. They do these reports for profit. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate for those who think these reports are Gospel. Still to some people they can be useful, I haven't said they weren't, just know what you're dealing with going in.
Garak brought up something interesting about people hung up on iron. Imagine two UOA reports for the same interval in the same engine. One with a favorite oil showing 10 ppm iron, another with an oil hated here showing 20 ppm of oil. Well the favorite oil must be twice as good and the engine using it will last twice as long. I bet some people could fall into that trap.
The biggest factor in UOA as Frank pointed out, IMO, is the integrity of any lab or their persons. Hopefully, you can trust that person you never meet to do their job well with tools/stations that don't allow human error to impact your sample (much).
Of course, we've had folks take multiple samples and get 2, sometimes 3 reports done on the same used oil(essentially). That is one way to cover yourself if ever in doubt; always take a 2nd sample in case. At least on the OCIs that 'matter' the most.
You're right Jim. The only problem is cost, wouldn't it be great if the % of messed up reports was lower and you could actually be 99.99% confident you got good data the first time? Forget about them running the same sample a second time if you're doubtful. If the oil was actually switched in error you'd never know, in fact they can run that oil a dozen times and come up with exactly the same report. It could be swapped with a sample of the same oil used in another vehicle, at $25-$30 a report they must sample a lot of oil, and do it fast too. They do these reports for profit. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate for those who think these reports are Gospel. Still to some people they can be useful, I haven't said they weren't, just know what you're dealing with going in.
Garak brought up something interesting about people hung up on iron. Imagine two UOA reports for the same interval in the same engine. One with a favorite oil showing 10 ppm iron, another with an oil hated here showing 20 ppm of oil. Well the favorite oil must be twice as good and the engine using it will last twice as long. I bet some people could fall into that trap.
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Originally Posted By: wolf_06
If my car is spec for 5w20, is 5w30 gonna give me better performance, protection?
Not only that, but the 5w30 will quiet down your engine too. You'll be wishing you switched sooner.
If my car is spec for 5w20, is 5w30 gonna give me better performance, protection?
Not only that, but the 5w30 will quiet down your engine too. You'll be wishing you switched sooner.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: wolf_06
If my car is spec for 5w20, is 5w30 gonna give me better performance, protection?
Not only that, but the 5w30 will quiet down your engine too. You'll be wishing you switched sooner.
Humm ok, some people on this forum say 5w20 is best, other like you say its not good, for long terms?!?!
Originally Posted By: wolf_06
If my car is spec for 5w20, is 5w30 gonna give me better performance, protection?
Not only that, but the 5w30 will quiet down your engine too. You'll be wishing you switched sooner.
Humm ok, some people on this forum say 5w20 is best, other like you say its not good, for long terms?!?!
Originally Posted By: wolf_06
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils
This link is very popular here. They claim thicker oil improve compression, horsepower and long term protection, better than any w20.
If my car is spec for 5w20, is 5w30 gonna give me better performance, protection? 5w30 is better for viscosity than 10w30 or some 5w20 conventional.
Are they talking about the viscosity index? its getting confusing reading through that article.
Clarification please!
This thread has been hijacked a little to discuss UOA - which I have some thoughts on as well, but I want to first answer the OP:
Machinery Lubrication is an excellent publication that is put out by Noria - a company which is responsible for many training resources for individuals and companies that are involved in the oil industry. This article, which was written in 2003 (as was already mentioned) was written by Blaine Ballentine, who (at least at the time) worked for Central Petroleum Company in Ohio (website http://www.cen-pe-co.com/index.html)
You can tell that this person does have a bit of a bias towards using high levels of ZDDP for engine protection and higher viscosity oils which if you have spent any time on this board and payed attention to the thick vs thin debate you would know this a mostly outdated philosophy. What Mr. Ballentine fails to mention in his article is the role that new additive combinations are playing in controlling wear in thinner oils. In terms of viscosity to maintain the proper oil pressure, CATERHAM can probably speak to this better than I can, but as far as I am concerned the proper viscosity oil for your engine has more to do with engine design than anything else. Thicker Oil - depending on the engine design is not going to automatically give you better protection. Viscosity has much less to do with protecting wear now when you factor in bearing material and design, additives and other factors of the elastohydrodynamic regime.
I just was reading yesterday about the ILSAC GF-6 spec which will be coming out in 2016 (the next evolution in fuel economy engine oils) and they mentioned that there will be two types of oil specified and one of them will not be backwards compatible with older engines. This is going to make the consumer market a bit of a mess I think, but interesting because basically what the API and SAE are saying is that using thinner oils in older engines to obtain fuel economy improvements may not be good for those engines.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils
This link is very popular here. They claim thicker oil improve compression, horsepower and long term protection, better than any w20.
If my car is spec for 5w20, is 5w30 gonna give me better performance, protection? 5w30 is better for viscosity than 10w30 or some 5w20 conventional.
Are they talking about the viscosity index? its getting confusing reading through that article.
Clarification please!
This thread has been hijacked a little to discuss UOA - which I have some thoughts on as well, but I want to first answer the OP:
Machinery Lubrication is an excellent publication that is put out by Noria - a company which is responsible for many training resources for individuals and companies that are involved in the oil industry. This article, which was written in 2003 (as was already mentioned) was written by Blaine Ballentine, who (at least at the time) worked for Central Petroleum Company in Ohio (website http://www.cen-pe-co.com/index.html)
You can tell that this person does have a bit of a bias towards using high levels of ZDDP for engine protection and higher viscosity oils which if you have spent any time on this board and payed attention to the thick vs thin debate you would know this a mostly outdated philosophy. What Mr. Ballentine fails to mention in his article is the role that new additive combinations are playing in controlling wear in thinner oils. In terms of viscosity to maintain the proper oil pressure, CATERHAM can probably speak to this better than I can, but as far as I am concerned the proper viscosity oil for your engine has more to do with engine design than anything else. Thicker Oil - depending on the engine design is not going to automatically give you better protection. Viscosity has much less to do with protecting wear now when you factor in bearing material and design, additives and other factors of the elastohydrodynamic regime.
I just was reading yesterday about the ILSAC GF-6 spec which will be coming out in 2016 (the next evolution in fuel economy engine oils) and they mentioned that there will be two types of oil specified and one of them will not be backwards compatible with older engines. This is going to make the consumer market a bit of a mess I think, but interesting because basically what the API and SAE are saying is that using thinner oils in older engines to obtain fuel economy improvements may not be good for those engines.
Originally Posted By: wolf_06
This link is very popular here. They claim thicker oil improve compression, horsepower and long term protection, better than any w20.
If my car is spec for 5w20, is 5w30 gonna give me better performance, protection? Clarification please!
Keep reading and studying the many threads on BITOG. Lot's of conflicting answers, mainly because it's not quite so simple to answer.
The only thing for sure is that a high end 5W30 with a high HTHS # will give you more protection in the extreme high temperatures of summer.
Everything else is subjective, engine, season and application specific. Even so, there is not gonna be much difference at all in running any modern 5W20 or 5W30 oil except in the very extreme low or high temps.
This link is very popular here. They claim thicker oil improve compression, horsepower and long term protection, better than any w20.
If my car is spec for 5w20, is 5w30 gonna give me better performance, protection? Clarification please!
Keep reading and studying the many threads on BITOG. Lot's of conflicting answers, mainly because it's not quite so simple to answer.
The only thing for sure is that a high end 5W30 with a high HTHS # will give you more protection in the extreme high temperatures of summer.
Everything else is subjective, engine, season and application specific. Even so, there is not gonna be much difference at all in running any modern 5W20 or 5W30 oil except in the very extreme low or high temps.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I agree. The problem as I see it is a lot of people put a lot of faith in a used oil analysis report, and that's wrong. A used oil analysis is a tool to determine if oil is capable of staying in the sump longer, if there is a spike in some wear metal. It can also indicate if excess fuel or coolant is in the oil. Outside of that there isn't much more they can do. Lets not forget how many mistakes they make with them, rendering many of them useless.
As much as you like to "take with a grain of salt" your used oil analysis results, I don't agree with saying that used oil analysis is limited in its ability to track engine wear. I think the problem with the way many of the individuals that post on this board haven't been trained to understand and read the used oil analysis in such a way that they can learn to see the results to protect themselves. The proper way to read used oil analysis is to establish a trend - using the same oil over several OCI's under similar operating conditions. The value is not in the exact PPM's of metals, but in the way those metals change over time. Constantly switching oil brands, and then running used oil analysis to compare them dilutes the statistics of it all. When you have an established trend and then make changes to the OCI or oil then you can see the effects those changes have on things like wear concentrations etc.
And while it is true that some labs do make mistakes, the only way to catch them (besides sending in multiple samples which is not cost effective) is to have the trend and when something seems out of wack to double check the sample. For example, once I sent out a sample and it came back with water dilution - at first I freaked out, but then realized that the container I used to catch the sample in was washed in water and hastily dried right before I pulled my sample. I rechecked the sample because it seemed suspicious to me and everything was fine. The only way I would have thought to re check it is because I had never had that issue before due to my trend and it was an anomaly.
used oil analysis can be a very effective tool if used properly. I think the cases where used oil analysis is dismissed as ineffective is generally by those who really don't have the experience or training to know what they are looking at when they have their results.
I agree. The problem as I see it is a lot of people put a lot of faith in a used oil analysis report, and that's wrong. A used oil analysis is a tool to determine if oil is capable of staying in the sump longer, if there is a spike in some wear metal. It can also indicate if excess fuel or coolant is in the oil. Outside of that there isn't much more they can do. Lets not forget how many mistakes they make with them, rendering many of them useless.
As much as you like to "take with a grain of salt" your used oil analysis results, I don't agree with saying that used oil analysis is limited in its ability to track engine wear. I think the problem with the way many of the individuals that post on this board haven't been trained to understand and read the used oil analysis in such a way that they can learn to see the results to protect themselves. The proper way to read used oil analysis is to establish a trend - using the same oil over several OCI's under similar operating conditions. The value is not in the exact PPM's of metals, but in the way those metals change over time. Constantly switching oil brands, and then running used oil analysis to compare them dilutes the statistics of it all. When you have an established trend and then make changes to the OCI or oil then you can see the effects those changes have on things like wear concentrations etc.
And while it is true that some labs do make mistakes, the only way to catch them (besides sending in multiple samples which is not cost effective) is to have the trend and when something seems out of wack to double check the sample. For example, once I sent out a sample and it came back with water dilution - at first I freaked out, but then realized that the container I used to catch the sample in was washed in water and hastily dried right before I pulled my sample. I rechecked the sample because it seemed suspicious to me and everything was fine. The only way I would have thought to re check it is because I had never had that issue before due to my trend and it was an anomaly.
used oil analysis can be a very effective tool if used properly. I think the cases where used oil analysis is dismissed as ineffective is generally by those who really don't have the experience or training to know what they are looking at when they have their results.
Originally Posted By: Jeff_in_VABch
Originally Posted By: wolf_06
This link is very popular here. They claim thicker oil improve compression, horsepower and long term protection, better than any w20.
If my car is spec for 5w20, is 5w30 gonna give me better performance, protection? Clarification please!
The only thing for sure is that a high end 5W30 with a high HTHS # will give you more protection in the extreme high temperatures of summer.
But even that premise supports a false premise.
First even a typically low HTHSV 5w30 (3.0cP - 3.1cP) is significantly thicker than any OTC 0W/5W-20 so going to the thick end of the 30wt grade (HTHSV 3.3cP -3.5cP) is overkill.
Secondly, the assumption that more "protection" will be provided is often second guessing the oil grade recommendations of the manufacturer. Technically a heavier oil doesn't provide more "protection" but rather a greater viscosity reserve in the event of high oil temp's. The heavier oil is totally counter-productive if the higher oils temp's required to justify it's use does not occur. It worth reminding all that when a 20wt oil is specified a very large viscosity reserve is still present to deal with higher than normal oil temperatures. Exceeding these viscosity reserves virtually always entails engine abuse such as exceeding the OCI, low oil level, using a low quality (non API) oil and/or exceeding the load carrying/towing capacity of the vehicle, something anal BITOG members would never do.
Originally Posted By: wolf_06
This link is very popular here. They claim thicker oil improve compression, horsepower and long term protection, better than any w20.
If my car is spec for 5w20, is 5w30 gonna give me better performance, protection? Clarification please!
The only thing for sure is that a high end 5W30 with a high HTHS # will give you more protection in the extreme high temperatures of summer.
But even that premise supports a false premise.
First even a typically low HTHSV 5w30 (3.0cP - 3.1cP) is significantly thicker than any OTC 0W/5W-20 so going to the thick end of the 30wt grade (HTHSV 3.3cP -3.5cP) is overkill.
Secondly, the assumption that more "protection" will be provided is often second guessing the oil grade recommendations of the manufacturer. Technically a heavier oil doesn't provide more "protection" but rather a greater viscosity reserve in the event of high oil temp's. The heavier oil is totally counter-productive if the higher oils temp's required to justify it's use does not occur. It worth reminding all that when a 20wt oil is specified a very large viscosity reserve is still present to deal with higher than normal oil temperatures. Exceeding these viscosity reserves virtually always entails engine abuse such as exceeding the OCI, low oil level, using a low quality (non API) oil and/or exceeding the load carrying/towing capacity of the vehicle, something anal BITOG members would never do.
check out the uoa, lots of people run 5w30 in their 5w-20 required engines and the wear numbers are same if not better than 5w-20.
5w30 is fine and dandy for all today engines, even my car.
/thread.
Meanwhile in Australia.... 10w50 oil is fine over there I guess.
/thread.
Meanwhile in Australia.... 10w50 oil is fine over there I guess.
Originally Posted By: accent2012
5w30 is fine and dandy for all today engines, even my car.
/thread.
Meanwhile in Australia.... 10w50 oil is fine over there I guess.
10W50 is like water over there. 25W70 is in.
5w30 is fine and dandy for all today engines, even my car.
/thread.
Meanwhile in Australia.... 10w50 oil is fine over there I guess.
10W50 is like water over there. 25W70 is in.
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I agree. The problem as I see it is a lot of people put a lot of faith in a used oil analysis report, and that's wrong. A used oil analysis is a tool to determine if oil is capable of staying in the sump longer, if there is a spike in some wear metal. It can also indicate if excess fuel or coolant is in the oil. Outside of that there isn't much more they can do. Lets not forget how many mistakes they make with them, rendering many of them useless.
As much as you like to "take with a grain of salt" your used oil analysis results, I don't agree with saying that used oil analysis is limited in its ability to track engine wear. I think the problem with the way many of the individuals that post on this board haven't been trained to understand and read the used oil analysis in such a way that they can learn to see the results to protect themselves. The proper way to read used oil analysis is to establish a trend - using the same oil over several OCI's under similar operating conditions. The value is not in the exact PPM's of metals, but in the way those metals change over time. Constantly switching oil brands, and then running used oil analysis to compare them dilutes the statistics of it all. When you have an established trend and then make changes to the OCI or oil then you can see the effects those changes have on things like wear concentrations etc.
And while it is true that some labs do make mistakes, the only way to catch them (besides sending in multiple samples which is not cost effective) is to have the trend and when something seems out of wack to double check the sample. For example, once I sent out a sample and it came back with water dilution - at first I freaked out, but then realized that the container I used to catch the sample in was washed in water and hastily dried right before I pulled my sample. I rechecked the sample because it seemed suspicious to me and everything was fine. The only way I would have thought to re check it is because I had never had that issue before due to my trend and it was an anomaly.
used oil analysis can be a very effective tool if used properly. I think the cases where used oil analysis is dismissed as ineffective is generally by those who really don't have the experience or training to know what they are looking at when they have their results.
It can be a useful tool to some people, no doubt about it.
A point I was trying to bring out is many people think because iron is 10 ppm with one oil and 20 with another to go out and start buying the oil that showed 10 ppm iron. Some think their engine is going to last twice as long. That is flat out wrong!!
Also as you mentioned 1 used oil analysis is pretty much meaningless useless you're looking for coolant or fuel in the oil. You need a few used oil analysis reports with the same brand oil to establish a trend. If you have the time and money to do that by all means go for it, that is the best way to utilize used oil analysis reports.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I agree. The problem as I see it is a lot of people put a lot of faith in a used oil analysis report, and that's wrong. A used oil analysis is a tool to determine if oil is capable of staying in the sump longer, if there is a spike in some wear metal. It can also indicate if excess fuel or coolant is in the oil. Outside of that there isn't much more they can do. Lets not forget how many mistakes they make with them, rendering many of them useless.
As much as you like to "take with a grain of salt" your used oil analysis results, I don't agree with saying that used oil analysis is limited in its ability to track engine wear. I think the problem with the way many of the individuals that post on this board haven't been trained to understand and read the used oil analysis in such a way that they can learn to see the results to protect themselves. The proper way to read used oil analysis is to establish a trend - using the same oil over several OCI's under similar operating conditions. The value is not in the exact PPM's of metals, but in the way those metals change over time. Constantly switching oil brands, and then running used oil analysis to compare them dilutes the statistics of it all. When you have an established trend and then make changes to the OCI or oil then you can see the effects those changes have on things like wear concentrations etc.
And while it is true that some labs do make mistakes, the only way to catch them (besides sending in multiple samples which is not cost effective) is to have the trend and when something seems out of wack to double check the sample. For example, once I sent out a sample and it came back with water dilution - at first I freaked out, but then realized that the container I used to catch the sample in was washed in water and hastily dried right before I pulled my sample. I rechecked the sample because it seemed suspicious to me and everything was fine. The only way I would have thought to re check it is because I had never had that issue before due to my trend and it was an anomaly.
used oil analysis can be a very effective tool if used properly. I think the cases where used oil analysis is dismissed as ineffective is generally by those who really don't have the experience or training to know what they are looking at when they have their results.
It can be a useful tool to some people, no doubt about it.
A point I was trying to bring out is many people think because iron is 10 ppm with one oil and 20 with another to go out and start buying the oil that showed 10 ppm iron. Some think their engine is going to last twice as long. That is flat out wrong!!
Also as you mentioned 1 used oil analysis is pretty much meaningless useless you're looking for coolant or fuel in the oil. You need a few used oil analysis reports with the same brand oil to establish a trend. If you have the time and money to do that by all means go for it, that is the best way to utilize used oil analysis reports.
La la la la la......
Just to be a weenie... in the next few week's my Wife's car is coming due for service. I'm going to switch her from the long running (5 years) of 5w-20 and put some 5w30 and NOT TELL HER. We'll see if she finds ANY difference at all.
I say she'll likely never notice the difference.
Then maybe we can stop the silliness.
Just to be a weenie... in the next few week's my Wife's car is coming due for service. I'm going to switch her from the long running (5 years) of 5w-20 and put some 5w30 and NOT TELL HER. We'll see if she finds ANY difference at all.
I say she'll likely never notice the difference.
Then maybe we can stop the silliness.
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