Thick oil, thin oil piston wear

[mene]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Looks like thick/thin is a regularly occurring debate,

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2808563/1


Classic thread. I love how so many people on the other side of the planet are telling the OP that his obs/ are wrong and that he's just imagining it and can't really accurately judge how much blowby he's having, even after OP says that he goes foot-to-the-floor at least once a month for hours.

12K, 0w20, small economy engine and hours of top speed driving, really? You don't see anything quite wrong with that because 0w20 works fine for your trips to King Soopers?

Instead the thread suddenly derails into how stupid, ignorant old timer troglodytes are trying to keep progress down because the thinnest stuff on the shelf isn't their panacea.

Sheesh.


People can get obtuse, if it is not what they think is right well.. it isn't; my 8 year old boy is like that, I'm trying to teach him some humility it has been hard but it is my son so I'll keep on trying.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: mene
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: jrustles
ignorant old timer troglodytes are trying to keep progress down


You mean old man's oil?



Yes, the old men at Ford and Chrysler. Where is my explanation by the way?


You're a single data point and because this is the internet we can't be certain you're sane.

There are hundreds here that claim their engine is smoother, revs better, is "happier" on one oil vs another and it's all bull.

I call it the placebo effect. The feeling jives with your views on oil bias.

 

[mene]

[/quote]

You're a single data point and because this is the internet we can't be certain you're sane.

There are hundreds here that claim their engine is smoother, revs better, is "happier" on one oil vs another and it's all bull.

I call it the placebo effect. The feeling jives with your views on oil bias.




[/quote]

Don't try to ease yourself out of the corner using insinuations about my sanity. This single data point proves that you are wrong. By the way your claims and opinions are just that and have the same validity as anybody else's not more, perhaps in your own mind they do but not anywhere else. Still waiting for an explanation.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: mene
the engine was noisy, vibrating more and wear rate increased more than 50% noted by the same pressure gauge, as soon as I went up to 40 weight (still lower than 50 may I add) oil the engine quieted down, vibrations were gone and rate of wear went back to where it was before. So, give me a logical explanation of "why" this happened,


You're not making much sense buddy. How are you determining wear rate? A single UOI cannot even determine wear rate. There is nothing that I know of other than an engine tear down to determine wear rate.

Originally Posted By: mene
By the way your claims and opinions are just that and have the same validity as anybody else's not more, perhaps in your own mind they do but not anywhere else.
Really. The same validity? Some of us have the technical background and experience tinkering with hotrods that probably gives us a tiny edge over a guy changing oil in his minivan. But of course this is just my opinion.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Some of us have the technical background and experience tinkering with hotrods that probably gives us a tiny edge over a guy changing oil in his minivan. But of course this is just my opinion.


Only if it's factual (both the quals and the argument) and supportable by science and logic...which is demonstrable by the person making the statement.

Egos and supposition hold less sway...in my opinion

 

[DragRace]

Quote:
Some of us have the technical background and experience tinkering with hotrods that probably gives us a tiny edge over a guy changing oil in his minivan. But of course this is just my opinion.


Thats a FACT!

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Only if it's factual (both the quals and the argument) and supportable by science and logic...which is demonstrable by the person making the statement.

Egos and supposition hold less sway...in my opinion


How are we going to know who is right until someone does studies to prove if thicker or thinner is better? Even then there will be arguments.

Ford seems rather adamant that thinner oils are the way to go. And there are millions of cars running 5W-20 with great results.

I think you should write a white paper on the subject...

 

[mene]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: mene
the engine was noisy, vibrating more and wear rate increased more than 50% noted by the same pressure gauge, as soon as I went up to 40 weight (still lower than 50 may I add) oil the engine quieted down, vibrations were gone and rate of wear went back to where it was before. So, give me a logical explanation of "why" this happened,


You're not making much sense buddy. How are you determining wear rate? A single UOI cannot even determine wear rate. There is nothing that I know of other than an engine tear down to determine wear rate.

Originally Posted By: mene
By the way your claims and opinions are just that and have the same validity as anybody else's not more, perhaps in your own mind they do but not anywhere else.
Really. The same validity? Some of us have the technical background and experience tinkering with hotrods that probably gives us a tiny edge over a guy changing oil in his minivan. But of course this is just my opinion.










1) It is UOA not UOI to begin with.
2)There is nothing that I know of other than an engine tear down to determine wear rate.; Exactly, that "you" know.
3) Some of us have the technical background and experience tinkering with hotrods that probably gives us a tiny edge over a guy changing oil in his minivan. But of course this is just my opinion. Again just your opinion, I don't know if you you have or not the experience you say you have and the technical background you say you have as much as you don't know what I know or can do or my level of expertise, so you opinion on that have no validity again.
4) Where is the explanation?

 

[mene]

Originally Posted By: DragRace
Quote:
Some of us have the technical background and experience tinkering with hotrods that probably gives us a tiny edge over a guy changing oil in his minivan. But of course this is just my opinion.


Thats a FACT!

It sure seems to BE DragRace it SURE DOES

 

[DragRace]

Originally Posted By: mene
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: mene
the engine was noisy, vibrating more and wear rate increased more than 50% noted by the same pressure gauge, as soon as I went up to 40 weight (still lower than 50 may I add) oil the engine quieted down, vibrations were gone and rate of wear went back to where it was before. So, give me a logical explanation of "why" this happened,


You're not making much sense buddy. How are you determining wear rate? A single UOI cannot even determine wear rate. There is nothing that I know of other than an engine tear down to determine wear rate.

Originally Posted By: mene
By the way your claims and opinions are just that and have the same validity as anybody else's not more, perhaps in your own mind they do but not anywhere else.
Really. The same validity? Some of us have the technical background and experience tinkering with hotrods that probably gives us a tiny edge over a guy changing oil in his minivan. But of course this is just my opinion.










1) It is UOA not UOI to begin with.
2)There is nothing that I know of other than an engine tear down to determine wear rate.; Exactly, that "you" know.
3) Some of us have the technical background and experience tinkering with hotrods that probably gives us a tiny edge over a guy changing oil in his minivan. But of course this is just my opinion. Again just your opinion, I don't know if you you have or not the experience you say you have and the technical background you say you have as much as you don't know what I know or can do or my level of expertise, so you opinion on that have no validity again.
4) Where is the explanation?


Look,if your engine was "vibrating" that bad,you better check your balancer.

 

[mene]

Well I'm going to bed now without an explanation and all, have to wake up early tomorrow to "change the oil in the minivan" since it is the only thing I know, perhaps turtlevette can come and teach me how to change the filter or better still do it for me like a pro does, "he does" have the technical background and experience tinkering with hot rods that he says I don't have.

Good Night Folk's

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: DragRace

Look,if your engine was "vibrating" that bad,you better check your balancer.


He thinks it's the thin oil. And nobody's gonna tell him any different.

 

[DragRace]

Some you just cant help these days.

 

[Iketh]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: mene
I have read the oil university, read a lot of threads regarding lower oil viscosity and understand everything and kind of agree with all the points and yet our van got to 475K. with a diet of Mobil 1 5W50 for 300K and the last 20K on 30 and the engine didn't like it, the unibody rusted out to the point of cracking but the engine ran perfectly I looked for a replacement body anywhere I could couldn't find one in decent shape; my point is even agreeing with the theory the facts don't support it at least in my personal experience and yes I have used thick oil all my life until this small test, I might try again but with a grain of salt.


Thicker oil provides greater separation between the piston, rings and liner...period...and reduces the length of the swept area that is undergoing boundary/mixed lubrication.

However, given that maximum piston speed is mid stroke, there can be excessive drag mid stroke...which wastes energy, but can't be any more "protective" than having a thinner oil at that point in the stroke.


NO, at mid stroke during combustion, the piston is being pushed against one half of the cylinder wall the hardest (mid stroke is when the rod is at its greatest angle.) A large portion of the power at the crankshaft is credited to the cylinder wall forcing the piston to move in a straight line. A thicker oil will protect better as long as the thickness does not prevent the oil from coating the entire surface.

Edit: I should also say thicker protects better as long as oil temp and engine load would cause the thinner oil to give way allowing metal-to-metal contact, i.e. thicker oil is NOT going to protect better than a thinner-prescribed oil at normal throttle and oil temp levels.

 

[Shannow]

Fair cop, I meant that thicker oil is always a thicker film, but once the film is thick enough...thicker oil offers no more "protection", but offers more drag.

Wasn't (meaning to say) that thinner oil is always good enough...

 

[Iketh]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Thicker oil provides greater separation between the piston, rings and liner...period...and reduces the length of the swept area that is undergoing boundary/mixed lubrication.


I really don't think that's true. With the thicker oils the ring tends to push the oil instead of riding on the oil. Or else how do you explain as the oil is more viscous you have less consumption? Thick oil does not creep and flow into very small crevices. Who uses heavy motor oil as a penetrate? Nobody because it doesn't work. You have to thin it down with acetone. What does a splash pattern of thick oil look like vs thin oil. The thin oil goes everywhere. The side clearance of these newer engines are specified with a 20wt in mind. What happens when you have a thicker oil. You have less oil discharge from the journal. Less oil on the piston.

I postulate that thinner oil can flow under the ring better than thick oil providing better hydrodynamic mode protection. Totally opposite to what you are saying.

So we are at odds again? But you are the man because you can out link me. I'm still wanting to read some of your original material. If you are as accomplished as you say where are your papers and tech articles?


Yes, oil burning (not via valve seals) is a good sign your rings aren't wearing against the cylinder walls LOL... this is for sure.

On a serious note, thinner oil protects rings better but only because there is no high lateral load on rings (rings pushing against the cylinder walls because of combustion).

However, ring protection is rarely an issue.

Thicker oil will better protect the pistons against the cylinder walls. If the pistons deform the cylinder walls, your rings will no longer matter.

Furthermore, and most important, the real issue is ring overheating which causes them to lose their springiness. Rings overheat because of a combination of too much contact with the cylinder wall and high-load high RPMs. Too thin of oil will turn to water under said high-load high RPMs causing the friction and overheating. (It can happen without friction against walls but that's a moot point for this discussion.)

 

[Brent_G]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: mene
the engine was noisy, vibrating more and wear rate increased more than 50% noted by the same pressure gauge, as soon as I went up to 40 weight (still lower than 50 may I add) oil the engine quieted down, vibrations were gone and rate of wear went back to where it was before. So, give me a logical explanation of "why" this happened,


You're not making much sense buddy. How are you determining wear rate? A single UOI cannot even determine wear rate. There is nothing that I know of other than an engine tear down to determine wear rate.

Originally Posted By: mene
By the way your claims and opinions are just that and have the same validity as anybody else's not more, perhaps in your own mind they do but not anywhere else.
Really. The same validity? Some of us have the technical background and experience tinkering with hotrods that probably gives us a tiny edge over a guy changing oil in his minivan. But of course this is just my opinion.










Then you should understand there isn't a one size fits all for oil. These "outdated" oils have a place in current engines and especially hotrods, so using blanket statements is a bit ridiculous IMO.

I have ran a few changes of Amsoil Dominator 5w20 in a 440 Mopar with good results - Average of a year per fill (about 1500 miles and 25-30 1/4 mile passes). Had the heads off for some work and walls look perfect. On the flip side of the coin the 528 Hemi will never see an oil thinner than a 50 besides the current fill due to fuel dilution. Different apps require different things.

Everybody has their own opinions and that is great, but getting offended when someone else doesn't see things as you do just results in tempers flaring on both side. There are many knowledgeable folks on this forum and tons of good information to absorb. We are all here to learn

 

[Hyde244]

If only auto manufacturers would consider the different types and grades of oil on the market, and recommend the best oil for my vehicle.

I am a very firm believer that the only difference between 5w20 and 5w30 is that assuming an appropriate OCI, the engine will live long enough for something else to go fatally wrong with the vehicle.

Rust, car accident, other critical part failure - these are far more likely things that will ultimately kill your car.

 

[mene]

Originally Posted By: DragRace
Originally Posted By: mene
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: mene
the engine was noisy, vibrating more and wear rate increased more than 50% noted by the same pressure gauge, as soon as I went up to 40 weight (still lower than 50 may I add) oil the engine quieted down, vibrations were gone and rate of wear went back to where it was before. So, give me a logical explanation of "why" this happened,


You're not making much sense buddy. How are you determining wear rate? A single UOI cannot even determine wear rate. There is nothing that I know of other than an engine tear down to determine wear rate.

Originally Posted By: mene
By the way your claims and opinions are just that and have the same validity as anybody else's not more, perhaps in your own mind they do but not anywhere else.
Really. The same validity? Some of us have the technical background and experience tinkering with hotrods that probably gives us a tiny edge over a guy changing oil in his minivan. But of course this is just my opinion.










1) It is UOA not UOI to begin with.
2)There is nothing that I know of other than an engine tear down to determine wear rate.; Exactly, that "you" know.
3) Some of us have the technical background and experience tinkering with hotrods that probably gives us a tiny edge over a guy changing oil in his minivan. But of course this is just my opinion. Again just your opinion, I don't know if you you have or not the experience you say you have and the technical background you say you have as much as you don't know what I know or can do or my level of expertise, so you opinion on that have no validity again.
4) Where is the explanation?


Look,if your engine was "vibrating" that bad,you better check your balancer.


Hi DragRace, it is internally balanced, the vibration was minimal, barely perceptible but there and only at midrange, harmonics probably it felt like a resonating header, I think you know what I mean.

 

[mene]

Originally Posted By: Hyde244
If only auto manufacturers would consider the different types and grades of oil on the market, and recommend the best oil for my vehicle.

I am a very firm believer that the only difference between 5w20 and 5w30 is that assuming an appropriate OCI, the engine will live long enough for something else to go fatally wrong with the vehicle.

Rust, car accident, other critical part failure - these are far more likely things that will ultimately kill your car.


I totally agree with you and have a prime example sitting in my driveway, I look for more protection not to break any longevity record but since parts wear at different rates my goal is to extend the replacement of those parts as long as I can to reduce overall cost of ownership and time spent doing R & R.