They built them, and no one came...

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Originally Posted By: Spyder7

Gas prices are a powerful force in mainstream economic choices when it comes to what people drive, as well as other factors mentioned.
-Spyder


Bingo!

I didn't see any full size pick-ups or SUV's the last time I was in Europe. But, fuel in Europe was already at $8us per gallon 10 years ago.

I think it will take gasoline at $10 to $15 per gallon to change what people drive in the good old USA. It is coming - maybe sooner rather than later.

Countries that "force" their populations to drive smaller, more efficient cars will be in a much stronger position, with a fleet of fuel efficient vehicles, if/when oil prices start to rise significantly.

I believe high oil/gasoline prices are inevitable.
 
Up from 19% to 25% market share between December and March....


"Sales of compact and subcompact cars accounted for about 25% of industry sales in March. That's up from about 19% in December, Pipas said.

"This is not unlike the shift we saw in the spring of 2008" -- the last time oil and gas prices spiked, Pipas said.

But unlike 2008, General Motors, Ford and Chrysler have hot-selling small cars and are capturing a larger piece of that segment.

GM's star performer in March was the Chevrolet Cruze. GM sold 18,018 Cruzes -- a 74% increase over the Cobalt compact car that it replaced.

Chrysler sold 500 of the new Fiat 500 minicar, the first month the company reported sales of the Mexican-built car.

Ford sold 9,787 Fiestas in March -- the most since the car was introduced last June -- and just launched a redesigned Ford Focus compact car.

"Ford is actually in a great position," said Jesse Toprak, an analyst with TrueCar.com in Santa Monica, Calif."


Auto sales exceed expectations
 
Originally Posted By: ChuckBerry
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Okay, since you mentioned it, I'll go with the smaller Malibu vs the larger built on frame car that can "absorb more energy and has more room to crumple":


I admitted that the newest Taurus would fare better than the Fit. There's just far more car there to absorb the energy of a crash and the same passenger compartment safety cage (on a larger scale). I was just debunking the whole "mass = safety" myth

oh, and crashing the 59 Chevrolet did make me a little sad.


I've been saying this for years, and this video is solid gold proof of my assertion...put me in ANY modern vehicle for a crash, no matter how small, that meets U.S. safety standards, rather than ANY "classic" car. Decades of safety engineering can prevent gruesome death or hideous injury.

You'll leave a good looking pile of debris in a Bel Air...hope they can still use your dental records to identify you.


Those were well known for having weak frames that would fold up in an off-center crash. That frame (or its variation) was used in Cadillac and other models too. I'd like to see the new Malibu go up against a 1975 Pontiac Grand Ville or something similar.
 
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Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Small car sales slump despite gas prices

Gas-sipping cars drive March US sales gain

Quote:
"Sales of small cars raced ahead in March as buyers flocked to more fuel-efficient vehicles..."

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I have a feeling there are 'agendas' at work behind these conflicting March sales reports.
 
Originally Posted By: LTVibe
confused2.gif


I have a feeling there are 'agendas' at work behind these conflicting March sales reports.




What agenda? This reasoning looks sound enough to me:

Quote:

"With gasoline prices eclipsing USD 3.50 a gallon, consumers are placing a high priority on fuel efficiency in every size and kind of vehicle," said Ken Czubay, Ford's vice president of US sales.


The quote is from your linked article.
 
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Originally Posted By: Spyder7

What agenda? This reasoning looks sound enough to me:

Quote:

"With gasoline prices eclipsing USD 3.50 a gallon, consumers are placing a high priority on fuel efficiency in every size and kind of vehicle," said Ken Czubay, Ford's vice president of US sales.


The quote is from your linked article.

I agree with what was said in the article I posted. But why does the other article appear to downplay small car sales?
 
If you review what the original article discusses. You will see that this spike is/was expected. The difference between the two is one sensationalizes and the other looks at the trend in a historical perspective. If history serves as a guide here, the spike will be short lived.

Time will tell.
 
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
If you review what the original article discusses. You will see that this spike is/was expected. The difference between the two is one sensationalizes and the other looks at the trend in a historical perspective. If history serves as a guide here, the spike will be short lived.

Time will tell.


Is it sensational if there is no real historical analogue to even call this a "spike"?

The trend over the past 10 years has, even eliminating spikes, been consistently upward in trajectory. What evidence is there to suggest that oil prices will only continue going upward?

Perhaps the US consumer percentage "driving" the increase in sales of smaller, more fuel efficient cars, upward are a sign of a trend, and not a fad.

Maybe the less fuel efficient SUVs and larger cars of the past, plus "vanity" automobiles (to use a term another poster has which fits well enough) in large trucks that never carry tools, tow, or leave the pavement, are the fad - a dying one?

In Europe especially, but also here in Canada, we are used to higher fuel prices, and are already paying the equivalent of $5/gallon US for gas. I'm certain it'll drop over the summer - same as it has almost every year before - but not to the same level it did last year, 2 years ago, or 5 years ago. And the fuel prices of 10 years ago are long gone, never to be seen again.

I will refrain from any political discussion, other than to mention the reality we are all aware of in that our largest tapped oil sources are - collectively - held by countries in unstable regions of the world. That instability is a factor that I don't think will end in the next 10 years. Do you?

Back to the purely economic forces, NA and Europe are huge oil consumers and our demand for fossil fuels continues to increase; as is China's, and their demand for energy sources of all kinds is increasing rapidly as they play industrial development with the west - yet their population dwarfs our own. What happens to fossil fuel demand when China reaches technological and industrial parity with the West?

I think the $3.50/gallon the US pays on average today will, at least within the next 10 years, and certainly long afterward, will come to be seen as "the good old days when gas was cheap."

There is an entire generation of drivers on the road and yet to be on the road, who are purchasing cars today, who have only known the high prices we've paid over the last 10 years. Maybe younger posters of that generation could shed more light on their own perceptions, but trying to imagine myself in their shoes, I would find the gasoline gluttons such as the Hummers that were the "rage" 10 years ago to be laughable as any kind of transportation option.

The majority of Americans and Canadians alike have limited amounts of non-discretionary income to spend on things like rent/mortgage, food, utilities, and transportation/fuel. You can only slice the pie so many ways, and as fuel costs increase, the income available to spend on it - assuming this as a constant - is still the same, and more fuel efficiency means is one very practical solution to keeping that slice of the non-discretionary spending pie from increasing, and thereby increasing funds for discretionary items (the fun stuff).

Long story short then, the quote from the VP at Ford makes sense and I don't think of this trend as a "spike." (in either fuel prices or the increase of more fuel efficient vehicle sales)

-Spyder
 
Chill man, I called it a spike, because thats exactly what it is...at this point.

When/If it becomes a trend, the numbers will clearly show that.

Like I said, time will tell. The jump from 19% to 25% of market share, is promising for this segment.

ps...I wasn't referring to gas/oil prices at all, only to the spike in small car segment sales.
 
As a younger person looking to save money in the long run and still have a functional, practical car, I'm all about getting the most fuel economy possible from a car. I'm also about "savings de moneys", so it's why my 25-27 mpg Buick is still kicking. Even with gas heading to $4.50 a gallon a 35 mpg $20k car would still be matching the total running costs of the less-efficient but paid-for Buick. I'd definitely like a more efficient car as a replacement when the day comes that my current car is ready to be retired.

When we needed a replacement for a doddering, rusted-out, blown-engine 95 Escort, we got a then-brand-new Honda Fit since the payments/insurance on that new car worked out to be slightly cheaper than getting a late-model used car and bringing it up to snuff mechanically. Used cars with the fuel economy, utility, and safety rating of that small hatchback were plain unavailable when we were looking.

When I am looking for a replacement, I've determined that it will be a new car around $20k since the recession has made used car prices outlandish, people aren't maintaining their cars as well, and the fuel economy of a new car when I want to buy one will be significantly higher than most used cars. Cars I'll look at will include Cruze (Eco 6MT, if not Eco hatchback 6MT...), Elantra, Focus, Forte hatch, Fit Sport 5MT, Elantra Touring, and hopefully a Chrysler offering if they have one. All of these cars have lots of room on the inside, a smaller footprint outside and generally 27-29 mpg city and 37-40 mpg highway. When fuel reaches $5/gallon here it won't affect me as much driving one of those cars.

Buying a more-efficient car for the express purpose of saving on fuel right now with gas prices at $3.75 around me would be penny-wise and pound-foolish for me, and for most of my peers. The gas savings don't match the added expense of payments and insurance on a new car. Even getting the cheapest Prius does not make financial sense until gas hits $5/gallon. Even then the savings in total cost of ownership are minimal.

Now, when replacing a truly worn-out car, get the most efficient car one can.
 
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The two are intertwined IMHO. I therefore call it a trend, even if its the beginning of it as far as US small car sales go. Its data though so its open to interpretation. One is that of a spike, the other that of a trend in its early stages.

-Spyder
 
Originally Posted By: Spyder7

Maybe the less fuel efficient SUVs and larger cars of the past, plus "vanity" automobiles (to use a term another poster has which fits well enough) in large trucks that never carry tools, tow, or leave the pavement, are the fad - a dying one?

In Europe especially, but also here in Canada, we are used to higher fuel prices, and are already paying the equivalent of $5/gallon US for gas. I'm certain it'll drop over the summer - same as it has almost every year before - but not to the same level it did last year, 2 years ago, or 5 years ago. And the fuel prices of 10 years ago are long gone, never to be seen again.



Just once I'd like an apple to apple comparison. People in Canada are paying more for fuel because on the taxes on the gasoline. I did a "Google" on this and most sources are saying that Canadians are paying around 30 - 40 percent of the total price of a gallon of gasoline in taxes. Where as in the US we pay roughly 10 percent.
Right now we pay about 18.4 cents per gallon federal tax and then state tax which varies from state to state. For California it is another 46.1 cents per gallon - neighboring state Arizona is only 19 cents per gallon.

I have never lived in Canada nor do I know anyone that does but I assume that while Canadians are taxed more on gasoline, maybe those of us in the U.S are taxed more in other areas - such as sales tax or various property taxes?
 
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Of course they are intertwined. That is why the past historical data is completely relevant to the current situation.

If you look at what happens, you will see that the uncertainty is as much of a driving force as the actual prices. What I mean is that the sales spike for smaller cars as prices rise, and then subside as gas/oil prices stabilize. The fear of ever increasing prices at the pump drive sales to a point, but falter when the prices stabilize..it has happened again and again in the industry.

If gas prices continue to rise slowly, this spike will continue and become a trend...if gas prices stabilize then the smaller car sales will subside and the trend will not develop. Even if gas gets to $4/gallon but then stabilizes there, the trend will not continue. There is a price at which the trend will become real and lasting, but we are no where near that price.

As for the trend/spike semantical argument, c'mon man, I'm not even disagreeing with you...it COULD be a trend if these numbers persist, but it is a spike at this point. Again, time will tell. Call it what you want, but it is what it is...at this point. Crystal ball predictions aside.
 
I should also add that this is part of the biggest problem with the automobile industry. It is dealing with the human flaw of short sightedness. While it easy for the consumer to shift their priorities "on a dime" and make wholesale changes in their spending habits. Steering a major auto manufacturer is like steering a huge iron ore carrier, it takes plenty of lead time and cash and man hours to make changes to planning and production.

As these articles point out, at least this time around Ford and GM are much better positioned to profit from this "spike/trend" as it develops...and the fact that they are is telling in and of itself imo.
 
Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
I have never lived in Canada nor do I know anyone that does but I assume that while Canadians are taxed more on gasoline, maybe those of us in the U.S are taxed more in other areas - such as sales tax or various property taxes?


On the whole -- and keep in mind, exceptions abound -- Canada tends to be more expensive if you like to buy a lot of stuff, and cheaper if you don't. Sales taxes generally are significantly higher, but property-related costs are often lower and you don't have to pay for health care.

That's my understanding, anyway.
 
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Cars I'll look at will include Cruze (Eco 6MT, if not Eco hatchback 6MT...), Elantra, Focus, Forte hatch, Fit Sport 5MT, Elantra Touring, and hopefully a Chrysler offering if they have one. All of these cars have lots of room on the inside, a smaller footprint outside and generally 27-29 mpg city and 37-40 mpg highway. When fuel reaches $5/gallon here it won't affect me as much driving one of those cars.


Recently I helped a 23 year old female former co-worker find a larger replacement for her '09 Aveo. She was replacing it mainly due to a poor customer service history with the service department at the local dealer (this was a local dealer issue between her and them, and her issue was not with GM as a brand or company, nor the fit/finish or build quality of the car).

Peripheral to that, the Aveo hadn't met her expectations for some of the severe winter driving conditions we had this winter, despite new studded winter tires (its worth adding here that she is an inexperienced driver and particularly in the winter).

She initially wanted an SUV (kind of one extreme to the other), and because of the dealer experience, she had ruled out GM. After we got down to the options, including the reality of putting $5/gallon gasoline into something that is not a fuel sipping 1.6L ecotec as she was used to, plus sticker price, she had settled on a sedan similar in size to my own.

Long story short, we went with the 2011 Kia Forte LX+ 4 door sedan ("we" in the sense that she is totally clueless about cars, realizes that, and relied on my advice). Other options seriously considered were the 2011 Elantra GL and 2010 Corolla CE (the Corolla was cheapest, being last year's model and with Toyota's recent sales woes, it had a lot of rebates and incentives). Anyway the Forte is a very nice car (I test drove it as well) IMHO, although it was a flip for her between that and the Elantra. Dealer reputations locally were a major factor in those two choices (she didn't like the interior of the Corolla, so that was a no go - females?!).

-Spyder
 
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Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
I have never lived in Canada nor do I know anyone that does but I assume that while Canadians are taxed more on gasoline, maybe those of us in the U.S are taxed more in other areas - such as sales tax or various property taxes?

Our sales tax in BC is now 12%, and gas is currently $1.35/L or $5.10USG in the Vancouver area.
 
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