There are three kinds of people:

[moribundman]

those wo can count, and those who can't:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/12/07/math.skills.ap/index.html

It's high time to shape up.

 

[Al]

Political correctness, "No Child Left Behind", inability to disciplin students, Schools spending more money on Security/worrrying about Lawsuits, Some Minority Students Believing its cool to underachieve, can't get rid of disruptive students, NEA, Arguing about "Intelligent Design" vs Science....I'm sure there is more.

Send your kid to a private school.

 

[gmayer5454375]

I agree with Al. I went to Private school and learned so much more than my friends in public school. There are too many distractions in a public school setting. Too much dumbing down of the curriculum and teaching toward the standardized test. I am a public school teacher and would teach in a private school if I could afford the pay cut.

 

[kenw]

Since math tests require mostly strict memorization, it's not hard to imagine why other countries, expecially oriental countries excel at math. There the entire culture is built on uniformity. Math loves uniformity. Math IS uniformity...

Once these kids get out of school and have been tagged by these tests as to their future capabilities, there is precious little room for change. Individual effort is not rewarded, in fact, most oriental cultures still frown on individualizm and any display of such. The downfall is that while many coming from these educational hellhouses can "do the math" and score very well on these standardized tests, they rarely know the underlying reasons for the math.

Give me an engineer that can think, I'll buy him a calculator....

 

[Al]

quote:

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Originally posted by kenw:
Since math tests require mostly strict memorization, it's not hard to imagine why other countries, expecially oriental countries excel at math. The downfall is that while many coming from these educational hellhouses can "do the math" and score very well on these standardized tests, they rarely know the underlying reasons for the math.

Give me an engineer that can think, I'll buy him a calculator....

---

Well I agree-but there are still 17 or 18 non-oriental countries above us.

And I think the problem goes deeper. The problem is not that we don't and won't have enough technical problem in the future-we will. Gifted foreighner are coming here in droves and the percentage of home grown talent and a great University System will leave us in good shate.

The real problem is that the very large group of kids coming from a failed educational (Government Schools) system have not aquired the tninking disciplins to be productive at anything in life except flipping burgers. And as the older work force goes away their skills and work ethic will be difficult if not impossible to replace.

 

[keith]

quote:

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Originally posted by kenw:
Since math tests require mostly strict memorization...

---

This is 100% BS. Math is problem solving with numbers and symbols, and those same skills are valuable in other academic areas and in normal life. Rote learning is a valid tool, but it's a means to an end and not the core skill.

It is really bad when more than 50% of 15 year old kids can't compute the change if buying a $1.95 burger and a $0.50 cent soda and giving the cashier $3. (yes, that is one of the test questions, and yes, more than 50% get it wrong!).

I would love to see a team of engineers design the next generation high definition DVD player or next generation PC CPU - from memory? That's going to be a hard task unless they have a time machine.

 

[dlw744]

It is easy to blame the public schools. Much harder to look in the mirror and see the real problem.

Our society ridicules young people who show an interest in math, science and critical thinking. Children’s cartoons depict intelligent characters as “nerds”, TV routinely shows science as a tool for evil and business treats engineers and scientists as commodities.

In the United States high values are put on entertainers of all stripes, accountants who can squeeze a few more eggs from any given goose and MBAs who know nothing about the real world. Meanwhile Engineers and Scientists, which is to say those who actually create things, are paid poorly and face very limited career potential.

The message is pretty clear to kids that the way to get ahead in the United States is NOT to worry about “hard” subjects like math. And we will continue to produce kids who fall far short of their potential until, and unless, we start to truly value knowledge and thinking.

And no amount of government hand ringing or spending is going to change anything.

I will now put away my soapbox.

dlw

 

[1sttruck]

I agree with Keith. Math is also kind of like pool, where you need to use it (play) often to stay good at it.

From what I've seen statistics is also similar, it's essentially applied math, and regardless of how well you can do the math some of the assumptions don't seem to be intuitive. It's kind of a minefield when trying to apply it to the real world, which is unfortunate as a LOT is nicely explained with statistics.

 

[Al]

quote:

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Originally posted by keith:

quote:

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Originally posted by kenw:
Since math tests require mostly strict memorization...

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This is 100% BS. Math is problem solving with numbers and symbols, and those same skills are valuable in other academic areas and in normal life.

---

I have to a agree. And its no coincidence that Engineers (who solve real world problems) are good at math.

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Al:

The real problem is that the very large group of kids coming from a failed educational (Government Schools) system have not aquired the tninking disciplins to be productive at anything in life except flipping burgers. And as the older work force goes away their skills and work ethic will be difficult if not impossible to replace.

---

The majority of those countries that are cleaning our clocks on the tests have government school systems that are more centrally controlled than ours.

The fact that our schools are government controlled isn't the big problem. The biggest single problem is the poorly raised students that parents are sending to US schools.

You can have excellent private schools and you can have excellent public schools. The real problem is the parents.

 

[Doug]

quote:

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Originally posted by Al:

The real problem is that the very large group of kids coming from a failed educational (Government Schools) system have not aquired the tninking disciplins to be productive at anything in life except flipping burgers. And as the older work force goes away their skills and work ethic will be difficult if not impossible to replace.

---

Who else is going to assemble my monster thickburger?

 

[kenw]

Since math tests require mostly strict memorization...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is 100% BS. Math is problem solving with numbers and symbols, and those same skills are valuable in other academic areas and in normal life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have to a agree. And its no coincidence that Engineers (who solve real world problems) are good at math.
__________________


real world math is problem solving as you both state.

What you fail to see is that math TESTS aren't real world. They are simple regurgitation, for which memorization excels. These scores are based on TESTS, not real world applications. Major difference people.....

good engineers can communicate and articulate. Too many of the "great at math" engineers are horrible at people and other skills and couldn't sell a life preserver to a drowning man. I've seen way too many of them apply for real-world jobs and I turned them down flat. When I want a mathematician, I hire a mathematician. And I have.

When I hire an engineer, I look to see if he took Speech, Technical Writing, etc. What rounding skills did he polish? Any machine shop classes? Can he/she actually carry on a conversation with a non-engineer? Far too many can't. And I can't use 'em.

My biggest gripe about modern Engineering schools is that they concentrate on the math to the detriment of real-world skills. They teach stuff that will be obsoleted in the next round of technology. They don't teach enough real-problem solving, root-cause analysis and hands-on things like fabrication and machining.

They can work a calculator like a well-trained monkey but haven't a clue as to what to do with whatever answer they get.

btw, i AM an Engineer....and have been for 27 years.

 

[Pablo]

I have three points to make:

1) Be careful what you say about public schools. OUR public schools are great. Basically because the local population gives a crap.
3) My 12 yo daughter is getting some killer math, including non-linear problem solving. One problem kicked my butt for almost a 4 or 5 innings of a WS game.
7) This is a bit sensitive (no I didn't read the whole CNN article) - but when you break the races out - yes Asians kick a$$ - but when you divide the USA into white, black, hispanic, etc - the white kids do much better. NO ONE is saying the color of anyone's skin has a thing to do with math skills - BUTT - it does seem a cultural driven thing. Which brings me back to the Asians. The culture drives them. Period.
11) My daughters are kicking fanny and taking names, like it or not when comes to math, thank you.

 

[1sttruck]

But even the people who did well in the US didn't fare well with others who did well in otehr countries. To improve averages you're typically better off by improving the lower quarter than you are by trying to improve the upper quarter.

Standardized tests get a lot of flack but some of the larger studies tend to confirm that some of them do as well as other measures, like high school grades, as predictors for success in college. You can argue that success in college doesn't mean success in the 'real world', but I think that it'd be hard to justify considering what 'success' tends to mean among countries. I think that in general 'creating wealth' tends to consist of engineers designing products that people buy, and that engineers are applying basic science developed by scientists. Both usually come out of the college system.

 

[Al]

quote:

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Originally posted by 1sttruck:
To improve averages you're typically better off by improving the lower quarter than you are by trying to improve the upper quarter.

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Well..this is "Government Thinking" as in the "No Child Left Behind " initiative . It hasn't been working, it isn't working now, and it is unlikely to work in the future (IMHO)

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pablo:
I have three points to make:

1) Be careful what you say about public schools. OUR public schools are great. Basically because the local population gives a crap.
3) My 12 yo daughter is getting some killer math, including non-linear problem solving. One problem kicked my butt for almost a 4 or 5 innings of a WS game.
.....

---

Our son graduated from high school with two years of Calculus and didn't need to take it in College on his way to an engineering degree. That was at a public school in California.

One big difference is parants that give a **** , beyond just whining about the school system.

Another is a having a kid that will work at getting an education instead of expecting to be spoon fed.

Plenty of kids that went to the same high school that my son did and got a lousy education. They didn't work at it and their parents let them get away with it.

 

[Rob Taggs]

It takes the school and parents working together. My son and two daughters go to the exact same schools that I did. I have to tell you there has been a drastic change for the better. Kids are held more accountable for behavior, school work etc... Even the parents are being held accountable to a certain degree. When I was in school, the adminstration could have cared less if I got my homework done. One problem that has developed and the adminstration has tried to hide is that racial problems have developed in a once predominately white school system. There was a riot that happened in the parking lot between black and white students. The papers got the scoop and told the truth. The school adminstration tried to cover it up by saying that there were no racial problems that they knew of. I did get to talk to several of the students who were there and they told me that this had been brewing for sometime. I was told that the situation was reverse racism. As the black population has been climbing in this district so have racial problems. I just telling what I have seen and observed. I personally have seen a huge rise in reverse racism in my area. I sure would like to know the cause ? I would hate to see my kids school go down the tubes. This has happened to the schools in the county to the south of mine. Once predominately white schools have now gone down the tubes due to the influx of minority students. It is a sad world when this happens.

 

[novadude]

quote:

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those wo can count, and those who can't:

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While we're at it, we had also better get those teachers to do a better job with teaching Spelling!!

Just kidding.... that was too easy to pass up, though!

 

[moribundman]

Any school system is only as good as the teachers and students make use of it. US schools show a vast variety of standards and demands. In general, there is a tendency in the US system that allows everyone to get by with a minimum effort. That doesn't encourage the slow learners, and it doesn't challenge the more gifted kids, so everyone loses.

Finland has an interesting approach to high school education. It's a more personal approach that's tailored towards the individual rather than a group achievement.

PS: Multiple choice test and a sloping grading curves are utter nonsense and must not be part of any educational system.

 

[moribundman]

Novadude, I swears I did it on purpose! You might like our creative spelling thread that Pablo started. Wee awl went whiled in their!