The Nature Of True Synthetics>???

[ULVER]

OK... These may or may not, apply to Group III synthetics. You tell me. I know that most of the "tough guys" like Mobil 1, German Castrol, Red Line, Amsoil, and Royal Purple claim:
Quicker protection at start-up
Higher film strength and protection under stress (heat/load/idle)
Better protection from deposits and sludge

BLAH/BLAH

Years back, Castrol Syntec (before the American Boning

) claimed that the oil actually clung to/penetrated the metal, to protect the engine "in ways other oils can't." Royal Purple also talks about their Synerlec additive remaining on the engine parts, even after shut-down.

Is this "bonding" to engine surfaces, a "nature" of ALL synthetic oils?

Or determined by other certain elements of the additive package?

Royal Purple claims a "tenacious" adhearing to motor parts. Can I expect this of German Castrol as well>???

 

[pitzel]

I don't know if there is a scientific term for this, but Mobil-1 has a habit of 'climbing' my dipsticks, whereas the dino oils I have used in the past do not.

Makes for a fairly difficult time of checking oil levels, but the capillary action of Mobil-1 is reassuring in that it probably does provide a film of oil on upper engine parts to reduce start-up wear.

Can't speak for other synthetics, most of my oil experience per se is related to transformer and electrical insulating oils.

 

[Al]

Esters (according to literature I have read in the past) will have more of a "polar" affinity toward metals. The molacules supposedly will cling to the metal and arrange themselves like the nap of a carpet.

 

[MGBV8]

Ester chemistry is covered by this link

http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/about_esters.html

My question is what % of ester is required to provide added protection as esters are expensive.

Redline and Motul 300V are ester based, Silkolene pro has approx 20% diester and Castrol Start up about same.

If M1 are dropping esters in their oil will it be as good?

 

[TallPaul]

This is why I have been thinking a shot of Redline may be the cheapest way to add esters to your oil and you get a boost in zinc, phosphorus, and moly to boot.

But how much ester is in Redline. I think they claim they only use ester base oil, which would mean they should have about 80 percent ester.

If 3 oz (recently reduced to 2 oz) of the Auto Rx ester will maintain a clean engine, that tells me a small amount can make a difference.

What if you put half a quart of Redline in per oci? If 80% that is 13 oz or about 2 to 3 ounces per quart.

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

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claimed that the oil actually clung to/penetrated the metal,

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Clinging to and penetrating metals are two entirely different mechanisms.

X-rays penetrate metal, polarized oils "cling" to metal. Nothing can penetrate past the oxide layer and its good it doesn't, otherwise, the bulk metallurgy would be changed.

For example, for ZDDP, the active sulfur donors help the zinc and phosporus to become attracted to the ferrous atoms. This form a very thin zinc/ ferrous phosphide film that turns plastic at high contact pressures, keeping the asperities separated. But the film is only Angstroms thick.

Esters do the same thing, they form molecular thick plastic layers as per Ray H.

 

[pbm]

Can anybody tell me which of the three Mobil 1 formulas ( Advanced Formula , Tri-Syn or SS) had the most esters?

 

[FoxFour]

From what I have read in many years past, synthetics ability to 'cling' to metal surfaces after the engine is shut down is one of the many advantages of syn oil.

 

[Ray H]

Two points to keep in mind about esters' bonding affinity to metal:

1> the polar attraction molecular bond results in a one molecular thickness of the ester to the metal's oxide layer. It doesn't take much to achieve that layer, and whatever excess ester content remains will circulate through the engine as reserve to "heal" any interruptions which occur in the ester layer's integrity.

2> since that one molecule thickness of bonded ester layer doesn't drain off at the next OCI, the ester content of the next drain and refill (presuming replacement with more ester content oil) will actually represent a further excess of what's required to maintain the bonded esters' protection.

 

[TallPaul]

quote:

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Originally posted by MolaKule:

Esters do the same thing, they form molecular thick plastic layers as per Ray H.

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That sounds a whole lot better than trying to coat an engine's internals with teflon by using Slick 50 or other products of that ilk.

 

[Jackpot01]

I have some RP in my Focus right now, it has been sitting for 3 weeks. I will let you know how well it clings when I get back home. I will pull the stick before I start it up. That should give a halfassed answer.

Eric

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

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My question is what % of ester is required to provide added protection as esters are expensive.

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Depending on the type of ester, 10% to 30% minimum.

 

[TallPaul]

quote:

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Originally posted by MolaKule:

quote:

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My question is what % of ester is required to provide added protection as esters are expensive.

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Depending on the type of ester, 10% to 30% minimum.

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So my comparison of esters to the quantity of Auto Rx then is like comparing apples to oranges since the Auto Rx does not provide protection, but a cleaning or maintaining a clean condition.

 

[rugerman1]

quote:

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Originally posted by TallPaul:
So my comparison of esters to the quantity of Auto Rx then is like comparing apples to oranges since the Auto Rx does not provide protection, but a cleaning or maintaining a clean condition.

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Rx does provide a certain measure of EP protection.If I recall correctly,That's why Terry recommends Rx for racers.Rx is more than a one trick pony.

Mark

 

[Leo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jackpot01:
I have some RP in my Focus right now, it has been sitting for 3 weeks. I will let you know how well it clings when I get back home. I will pull the stick before I start it up. That should give a halfassed answer.

Eric

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Hmm I have Delvac 1 in my car I didnt use the car for 2 weeks. I opened up the filler cap and rubbed my finger on one of the cam lobes and there was plenty of oil on there. Not sure whether that has to do with the viscosity of the oil, or its ester componenet. Probably the viscosity i say..

 

[TallPaul]

quote:

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Originally posted by rugerman1:

quote:

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Originally posted by TallPaul:
So my comparison of esters to the quantity of Auto Rx then is like comparing apples to oranges since the Auto Rx does not provide protection, but a cleaning or maintaining a clean condition.

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Rx does provide a certain measure of EP protection.If I recall correctly,That's why Terry recommends Rx for racers.Rx is more than a one trick pony.

Mark

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While I realize Auto Rx is a different kind of ester than say Redline uses, I am still having a problem understanding how Auto Rx can provide benefits on 2 ounces per crankcase (though the racers you refer to probably are using more than that, right), but I need 16 to 48 ounces (10-30% of a 5 qt sump) of any other kind of esters in my oil to get any benefit.

 

[rugerman1]

Not 10 to 30%.I'm talking standard Rx ratios.

 

[TallPaul]

quote:

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Originally posted by rugerman1:
Not 10 to 30%.I'm talking standard Rx ratios.

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Oh sorry, I was refering to MolaKule's statement of what one would need to benefit from esters:

quote:

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Originally posted by MolaKule:

quote:

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My question is what % of ester is required to provide added protection as esters are expensive.

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Depending on the type of ester, 10% to 30% minimum.

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But I recall (IIRC) from another thread some time ago where MolaKule said about the same thing related to getting friction modification benefits. Since the molecule-thick coating of the metal would likely occur with a small quantity as Ray H said above, then benefits should be realized by adding say 4 oz of Redline (assuming worst case 50% ester in Redline) that would help in start up and antiwear, but those benefits may be negligible at that level.

 

[MGBV8]

2> since that one molecule thickness of bonded ester layer doesn't drain off at the next OCI, the ester content of the next drain and refill (presuming replacement with more ester content oil) will actually represent a further excess of what's required to maintain the bonded esters' protection.


Does this mean that once 10-30% ester added then further esters are not required or is 10-30% required each change for replacement purposes.

Also will the ester content also be sufficient for say a winter lay up, without need for additional additives.

Although Auto rx is a unique product would anything similar be available in Motul a double ester.