The energy advocacy paradox/fear of adoption

[gathermewool]

Any articles to back that up?

 

[wdn]

“According to a peer-reviewed study published by the Journal of Industrial Ecology, when a new EV appears in the showroom, it has already caused 30,000 pounds of CO2 emission. The equivalent amount for manufacturing a conventional car is 14,000 pounds.”

Bjorn Lomborg: Green Cars Have a Dirty Little Secret

In The Wall Street Journal, Bjorn Lomborg writes that producing and charging electric cars means heavy carbon-dioxide emissions.

www.wsj.com

 

[OVERKILL]

My latest thing is checking what the source is for the power production in a pie chart in the place where the car will be charged. If it’s mostly from coal, call me in another 30 years. As much as it’s cool to go from 0 to 60 in 3.5 seconds I’m not going to pay extra for a coal powered car. Right now Washington State and B.C. in Canada get most of their power from hydro which makes it an interesting proposition. Washington also has Nuclear power which is also acceptable. Next door in Alberta it’s still 40% coal, so no thanks over there.

Yes, that's an important thing. BTW, if you thought Alberta was bad, the bastion of east coast wind generation isn't doing too hot:

 

[wdn]

“The study finds EVs cause 86 per cent more deaths from air pollution than do cars powered by regular gasoline.

Coal produces 39 per cent of the country’s electricity, according to the U.S. DOE.”

Electric vehicles powered by coal dirtier than gasoline: study

Study found electric vehicles cause 86 per cent more deaths from air pollution than do cars powered by regular gasoline

www.canadianmanufacturing.com

 

[OVERKILL]

“According to a peer-reviewed study published by the Journal of Industrial Ecology, when a new EV appears in the showroom, it has already caused 30,000 pounds of CO2 emission. The equivalent amount for manufacturing a conventional car is 14,000 pounds.”

Bjorn Lomborg: Green Cars Have a Dirty Little Secret

In The Wall Street Journal, Bjorn Lomborg writes that producing and charging electric cars means heavy carbon-dioxide emissions.

www.wsj.com

Yup, so it takes a while to neutralize that, but that varies by your grid emissions intensity:

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Emissions from Electric Vehicles

 

[OVERKILL]

“The study finds EVs cause 86 per cent more deaths from air pollution than do cars powered by regular gasoline.

Coal produces 39 per cent of the country’s electricity, according to the U.S. DOE.”

Electric vehicles powered by coal dirtier than gasoline: study

Study found electric vehicles cause 86 per cent more deaths from air pollution than do cars powered by regular gasoline

www.canadianmanufacturing.com

Key quote:

The key is the source of the electricity electric vehicles (EVs).


If it comes from coal, the electric cars produce 3.6 times more soot and smog deaths than gas, because of the pollution made in generating the electricity, according to the study published by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Which is why if we really want to reduce emissions, just going to EV's isn't going to help, it only makes a big difference if the charge source is low emissions. If you look at the emissions intensity snapshots I posted above you can see there is HUGE variance in that.

 

[wdn]

Right but I and frankly most Bob members live in the United States, where 39 percent of electricity is generated by burning coal. Clean nuclear has been decimated in this country.

 

[ripcord]

So... the obvious answer is not just EV's, but to not let people drive unless they have a really good reason.

 

[OVERKILL]

Right but I and frankly most Bob members live in the United States, where 39 percent of electricity is generated by burning coal. Clean nuclear has been decimated in this country.

Agreed, I'm just speaking to my specific situation, the contrast is made more significant by the fuel economy of my vehicle and the low emissions intensity of our grid. If I lived in Nova Scotia? Pffffft, yeah, why bother?

 

[supton]

Right but I and frankly most Bob members live in the United States, where 39 percent of electricity is generated by burning coal. Clean nuclear has been decimated in this country.

I thought coal was on the decline? Being replaced by natural gas.

 

[gathermewool]

“According to a peer-reviewed study published by the Journal of Industrial Ecology, when a new EV appears in the showroom, it has already caused 30,000 pounds of CO2 emission. The equivalent amount for manufacturing a conventional car is 14,000 pounds.”

Bjorn Lomborg: Green Cars Have a Dirty Little Secret

In The Wall Street Journal, Bjorn Lomborg writes that producing and charging electric cars means heavy carbon-dioxide emissions.

www.wsj.com

And the. The whole power plan vs gasoline thing?

 

[gathermewool]

Look Here: Even More Evidence That Electric Cars Could Save the Planet

The latest data says that in the US, electric cars are indeed cleaner than gas-powered ones—and the gap is widening.

www.wired.com

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I'd like to think we would have one BEV if we had a two-car garage

 

[Skippy722]

I don’t want an EV because it’s “environmentally friendly”, I just like the torque they make. That being said, we will likely end up with one in the future, but I want solar panels+battery backup first just because I’m sick of paying my utility. Plus most of my power is from coal.

 

[edyvw]

Until these criteria are met, no way:
1. Can I do 900 miles in a day in any weather, including potentially -30 to -40 temperatures?
2. Can I recharge in such short time that I can do 900 miles in a day (not 24hrs, but 14-15hrs)?
3. Can I go ski, leave a car at -20 all day, and drive back (2 1/2 trip one way)?
4. I am flying to Vegas on Saturday with kids. Coming back Tuesday night, late. I want to get in the car amd drive directly home. Car will be exposed to temperatures in teens overnight at DIA. I want that flexibility.
Until this criteria is met, no. Once kids are out of child seats, I am probably getting current Sequoia with that 5.7 V8 used and getting rod of this van.

 

[Nick1994]

I like the tech, that's one reason I bought the Genesis. So I'm open minded to the idea. If the Genesis were totaled or something and had to be replaced, I think I'd drive the Camry for a month or two and give it a long hard thought about it. Maybe a Model 3. But I'm not sure now is yet the time. It's still kind of in an infancy state, or more of a toddler state.

Until these criteria are met, no way:
1. Can I do 900 miles in a day in any weather, including potentially -30 to -40 temperatures?
2. Can I recharge in such short time that I can do 900 miles in a day (not 24hrs, but 14-15hrs)?
3. Can I go ski, leave a car at -20 all day, and drive back (2 1/2 trip one way)?
4. I am flying to Vegas on Saturday with kids. Coming back Tuesday night, late. I want to get in the car amd drive directly home. Car will be exposed to temperatures in teens overnight at DIA. I want that flexibility.
Until this criteria is met, no. Once kids are out of child seats, I am probably getting current Sequoia with that 5.7 V8 used and getting rod of this van.

I can see where you're coming from, and I think your thought process is the same as others, and they try to make an electric car do EVERYTHING. But that isn't all that realistic. I can see you have 3 cars. So if 1 got replaced by an electric, the other 2 can still do that 900 mile trip. A couple years ago I drove my Sonata round trip to Vegas in back in one day, 700+ miles. If I owned a Model 3, I'd either decide to stay longer so I can charge, or just take the Camry or Jeep. Not a big deal.

 

[Ws6]

I know this will only apply to a small subset of members, but who here is incredibly torn on the idea of getting a BEV based on their views on emissions, power gen...etc?

I find myself constantly waffling between the idea of buying a BEV and waiting. As most know, I briefly (for about a month) owned an Audi e-tron, but it lacked the upgraded interior, despite being Technik trim and my wife absolutely hated it, so I ate some money on that and went back into a GC.

I love the idea of an electric GC, but at the same time, I have no idea when those are coming out. And I really liked the idea of the Audi. It was a nice car, and in the trim I had originally test-driven, well appointed (though I won't say any better appointed than the Jeep, the SRT GC Laguna interior is fantastic) but the quiet (it was insanely well sound-deadened) and lack of "sporty" feel were detractors for me. It was quick enough however, but you could feel the weight.

For me, as an energy nut and proponent of nuclear and hydro being leveraged for deep emissions reductions from power gen, I feel like a hypocrite driving something that gets 10mpg in the driving profile I currently operate. At the same time, I love the vehicle, it's an absolute hoot to drive. Snarly, lots of personality and very well appointed, it has significant appeal to the other side of my personality that loves driving and that experience.

I geeked-out on the Audi interior with the HUD, multiple displays (which were very high quality) and just generally "techie" feeling to the car, but I just don't feel the convergence of that and my enthusiasm for the feel of a traditional sport-geared vehicle in it, despite it, in many ways, looking the part. I don't find Tesla vehicles feeling as upscale (too spartan for my taste and no real leather) and they lack a HUD at this point, which I really like.

My wife started bugging me about it a bit lately and had me look at what was available. I had mostly moved on, but since she revived the thinking, it's been bouncing along, in varied levels of intensity, in my mind. Maybe I'm the only one stuck in this bizarre quagmire? LOL!

For me it's all about logistics. I don't have a PEV because of their short range vs long recharge times. When they fix that, I'll buy one if it's reliable and meets my needs. Emissions isn't really a factor for me.

 

[Cujet]

I know this will only apply to a small subset of members, but who here is incredibly torn on the idea of getting a BEV based on their views on emissions, power gen...etc

Maybe I'm the only one stuck in this bizarre quagmire? LOL!

I'm not as picky as you with regard to interiors. I drive so much, my only interior criteria is that the seats be very comfortable.

With that in mind, the Tesla cars flat out ROCK. I love driving my friends Model S performance. I can't imagine how fun the Plaid model will be. I find them comfy and really fun. What's not to love?

But to think that EV's are somehow better for the environment is, at this moment, very incorrect. 61% of our grid is powered by fossil fuel. Another 20% burns nuclear fuel.

A Model S will go 19 highway miles in winter on 10 pounds of coal (same energy as a gallon of gas) and 29 miles, best case possible.

It's not lost on me that the technology is a stepping stone towards non fossil fuel transportation power. However, only 14% of national energy consumption is by "cars". And the EV is not YET helping to reduce energy consumption. In fact, a very strong case can be made that Hybrids consume less energy per mile.

 

[edyvw]

I like the tech, that's one reason I bought the Genesis. So I'm open minded to the idea. If the Genesis were totaled or something and had to be replaced, I think I'd drive the Camry for a month or two and give it a long hard thought about it. Maybe a Model 3. But I'm not sure now is yet the time. It's still kind of in an infancy state, or more of a toddler state.


I can see where you're coming from, and I think your thought process is the same as others, and they try to make an electric car do EVERYTHING. But that isn't all that realistic. I can see you have 3 cars. So if 1 got replaced by an electric, the other 2 can still do that 900 mile trip. A couple years ago I drove my Sonata round trip to Vegas in back in one day, 700+ miles. If I owned a Model 3, I'd either decide to stay longer so I can charge, or just take the Camry or Jeep. Not a big deal.

I use all 3 cars in that manner. I don’t buy cars to be my garage queen. BMW does all daily stuff (grocery, daycare) and ski trips, track etc.
Minivan: long trips, large stuff from home depot etc.
Wife drives Tiguan. We still use less gas than average Tesla owner in neighborhood that usually has two gas hogs next to it.
As for Vegas trip, with two small kids I cannot just like that decide to spend a night somewhere. All long trips are pre-planned I am will not for sure plan around charging stations.

 

[OVERKILL]

I'm not as picky as you with regard to interiors. I drive so much, my only interior criteria is that the seats be very comfortable.

With that in mind, the Tesla cars flat out ROCK. I love driving my friends Model S performance. I can't imagine how fun the Plaid model will be. I find them comfy and really fun. What's not to love?

But to think that EV's are somehow better for the environment is, at this moment, very incorrect. 61% of our grid is powered by fossil fuel. Another 20% burns nuclear fuel.

A Model S will go 19 highway miles in winter on 10 pounds of coal (same energy as a gallon of gas) and 29 miles, best case possible.

It's not lost on me that the technology is a stepping stone towards non fossil fuel transportation power. However, only 14% of national energy consumption is by "cars". And the EV is not YET helping to reduce energy consumption. In fact, a very strong case can be made that Hybrids consume less energy per mile.

Our grid here is 85% nuke/hydro, so very clean, average emissions intensity is around 38gCO2/kWh, so one of th cleanest in the world. Lifecycle emissions here for an EV would be far lower than for say in Nova Scotia or Alberta where the grid is primarily coal, as you've touched-on.