The Dwindling List of Manual Cars You Can Buy New

[dailydriver]

One could ONLY buy my car in a manual, and for that fact, I am OVERJOYED!!

(...and yup, BEST theft deterrent EVER, although I guess thieves would use a flat bed if they wanted it that badly?

)

 

[Wolf359]

I don't think the math is that great with owning one anyway. Although some people report that their clutch lasted 200k, most of the time they end up getting replaced in the 100k range so by the time you do the clutch, that's about the cost of an automatic transmission. Whereas most automatic transmissions can make it to 200k with the original one. You do get slightly better gas mileage. Most manuals tend to be stripper models and not fully loaded though. That is, you're more likely to find a fully loaded model with an automatic than a manual.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
I don't think the math is that great with owning one anyway. Although some people report that their clutch lasted 200k, most of the time they end up getting replaced in the 100k range so by the time you do the clutch, that's about the cost of an automatic transmission. Whereas most automatic transmissions can make it to 200k with the original one. You do get slightly better gas mileage. Most manuals tend to be stripper models and not fully loaded though. That is, you're more likely to find a fully loaded model with an automatic than a manual.


Umm, no.
A badly used stick will still get well over 100K on a clutch and a really good clutch job including a new flywheel will run you around a grand or can be DIYed for a couple of hundred bucks.
Please tell me of an automatic transmission that can be replaced for a grand or that can be DIYed for a couple of hundred bucks.
The grand you spend on the clutch is the same grand that you saved buying the stick rather than an automatic, so it's a wash.
Factor in the 10% better fuel consumption you'll see with a stick, and it's the clear winner in terms of the math you cite. How do I know this? Oh, two same gen and even same color Accords, one a stick and the other a slushbox.
Sticks aren't about economics anyway.
They're about driving entertainment. For those who actually enjoy driving and are reasonably skilled, a stick is always a more satisfactory choice.
Too bad it's an increasingly rare one.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27

Please tell me of an automatic transmission that can be replaced for a grand or that can be DIYed for a couple of hundred bucks.


I'm thinking 4L60/700R4, or whatever 4AT was used on the Panther platform, maybe? Am guessing anything that was made in the millions heads towards cheap. I used to think dropping a RWD trans was dirt easy, but after watching the one in Jetta come out in like an hour I'm not sure FWD is necessarily that hard either. yeah there's a few hours of labor, but not all day to swap.

I know Wolf meant "most drivers" but I'm losing the urge to brag about how pristine my 250kmile clutch was when it came out (due to a flywheel failure that wasn't my fault).

 

[simple_gifts]

I enjoy my (2) 5sp, but for 'stuck in traffic' type of driving, nothing better than the Prius.

Some people have a drive a manual and don't get their knickers in a twist about it.

 

[Wolf359]

Well I put a clutch in mine. The old one didn't have much life left to it. I did learn how to drive a stick on a 2.2 Chrysler turbo. The engine went so it wasn't too bad replacing the clutch at the same time. That was the 3rd one too as when I bought it, the guy had already replaced the clutch so I thought I was going to be good to go for a while. You hear lots of people brag about their clutch lasting 200k, but not too many when they last 100k. I don't think mine lasted more than 50k actually. I even knew a guy who had 150k on his original clutch, but I knew how he drove and he drove it easy. I always drove it hard, dropped the clutch a few times etc. Also don't get me wrong, I enjoyed driving it, was considered "fun" except the traffic is so bad around here it's no fun anymore. I also knew other people who drive sticks and they never got the life that most people here like to brag about. Probably because they drove more in city traffic which wears out a clutch a lot faster than highway driving.

Originally Posted By: supton
I know Wolf meant "most drivers" but I'm losing the urge to brag about how pristine my 250kmile clutch was when it came out (due to a flywheel failure that wasn't my fault).

Oh were those city miles or highway, rural miles? -

On the other hand, the last car I drover over 200k on the original automatic transmission, never had to change it.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27

Factor in the 10% better fuel consumption you'll see with a stick, and it's the clear winner in terms of the math you cite. How do I know this? Oh, two same gen and even same color Accords, one a stick and the other a slushbox.


That may have been true when it was a 5 or 6 speed stick vs a 3, 4, or 5 speed auto but with 6, 8, 9, 10 speed autos that's just not true.

Using the Honda Accord. According to EPA for 2018:
1.5L Turbo
CVT 30/38/33
7 Speed Auto: 29/35/31
6 Speed Stick: 26/35/30

2.0 Turbo:
10 Speed Auto: 23/34/27
6 Speed Stick 22/32/26

Plenty of other examples out there as well.

Quote:
Sticks aren't about economics anyway.
They're about driving entertainment. For those who actually enjoy driving and are reasonably skilled, a stick is always a more satisfactory choice.
Too bad it'/s an increasingly rare one.


True. And those vehicles where that is a priority there will be a manual option available even if it's not the fastest or most fuel efficient option.

 

[KrisZ]

EPA test cycle penalizes manual transmissions. I forget the exact numbers, but the protocol requires shifts at certain RPM regardless of gear ratios and engine ability to handle lower RPM. Automatic transmissions, on the other hand, are left to their own devices and can be programmed to do well in the EPA cycle.

In my experience it is much easier to beat the EPA numbers with a manual transmission than an automatic one.

But I will take EPA numbers any day over the European fuel economy test. One would think that a continent with such high fuel prices would develop a fuel economy test that was actually relevant in real world, nope, they like to stroke their egos with artificially inflated numbers.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
I don't understand people's obsession with manual transmission cars?



I agree, today's automatics can be incredible.

To some extent, the obsession with manual transmissions is rooted in 75 years of crummy automatics. Comparing a crummy automatic to an S2000 manual clearly illustrates the fun factor and total control in the S2000's slick little 6 speed manual.

However, let's consider the Tesla Model S or Model 3. Both electric cars have no transmission at all, and do exactly what you ask, immediately. An ideal situation, no shifting, no drama, no issues. The modern performance automatic and the better CVT's are much like the Tesla, instant, quick, drama-free. Would we insist on a manual transmission in a Tesla? Of course not.

So why insist that your fun to drive car have a manual? Ferrari no longer offers manual transmissions, with good reason.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Oh were those city miles or highway, rural miles? -


I like to think of them as highway miles. Mostly NH but some MA highway driving too (stop & go). No reason it couldn't be replicated for anyone outside of a major city.

We didn't measure the lining thickness but it was clearly not very worn at all. Neither of us would have thought twice about reusing it, despite the miles. I usually had full engagement around 1,200 rpm, give or take--I did not care to use much throttle to take off. Wears the clutch prematurely, ya know.

 

[Andrew1972]

Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: fdcg27

Factor in the 10% better fuel consumption you'll see with a stick, and it's the clear winner in terms of the math you cite. How do I know this? Oh, two same gen and even same color Accords, one a stick and the other a slushbox.


That may have been true when it was a 5 or 6 speed stick vs a 3, 4, or 5 speed auto but with 6, 8, 9, 10 speed autos that's just not true.

Using the Honda Accord. According to EPA for 2018:
1.5L Turbo
CVT 30/38/33
7 Speed Auto: 29/35/31
6 Speed Stick: 26/35/30

2.0 Turbo:
10 Speed Auto: 23/34/27
6 Speed Stick 22/32/26

Plenty of other examples out there as well.

Quote:
Sticks aren't about economics anyway.
They're about driving entertainment. For those who actually enjoy driving and are reasonably skilled, a stick is always a more satisfactory choice.
Too bad it'/s an increasingly rare one.


True. And those vehicles where that is a priority there will be a manual option available even if it's not the fastest or most fuel efficient option.


I find the EPA numbers to be way off on our recent purchase a VW Tiguan. It is rated with a terrible 21/27 MPG. However we seem to achieve around 26 MPG mixed city/highway. On the highway it actually creeps toward 35MPG. Consumer Reports and a few car magazines seem to back the MPG we get. I guess VW was not about to "trick" the EPA this time

 

[Ifixyawata]

Good thing I don't buy new cars.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
I don't understand people's obsession with manual transmission cars?


Originally Posted By: Cujet
I agree, today's automatics can be incredible.

However, let's consider the Tesla Model S or Model 3. Both electric cars have no transmission at all, and do exactly what you ask, immediately. An ideal situation, no shifting, no drama, no issues. The modern performance automatic and the better CVT's are much like the Tesla, instant, quick, drama-free. Would we insist on a manual transmission in a Tesla? Of course not.

So why insist that your fun to drive car have a manual? Ferrari no longer offers manual transmissions, with good reason.


For most, it is a love/desire for the process in order make a vehicle move. Being a part of the process rather than just being a passenger.

I have two manual cars and I am the only one in my household that can drive stick. I won't buy an automatic anymore for my personal vehicle anymore. I did it once and while I loved the car, I loathed driving it. I find automatics frustrating while manuals are zen. At the end of the work day, it could have been the mother of all bad days but 10 minutes with a a stick-shift and I am fine. In the auto, I bring the foul mood with me. My wife even picked up on that mood-swing unprompted. Thus, I personally would rather have a Mazda3 with a manual over a modern Ferrari with slappy-paddles. It would not even be a debate. That isn't some hyperbole about manuals... that is my actual preference (besides the Mazda being easier to live with and cheaper to own). I find automatics... frustrating, boring and a chore to drive. I enjoy driving a manual... I don't enjoy driving when it is an automatic. Don't ask me why, but I need something to do while driving that the automatics can't touch. Maybe it is this: I grew up sailing. Put me on the water with any sailboat and I am happy. Motorboats, meh. Yeah, they can go faster but you aren't really making it go faster... you are just the passenger. The other funny side is that I really like CVTs... from an engineering perspective. I don't want to drive it but it is interesting.

Heck, sometimes I like to no use the clutch and go through the gears via matching the engine speed.

Finally, I don't know how electrification will end up working but, the reason I do not have an EV is because of the lack of a stick. So yes, I would insist on a manual EV. I would be a hold out for an EV for that reason despite my commuting needs matching perfectly for EV driving behavior 15mi round trip commute and I average about 5-6K miles a year.

Also note: Ferraris (actually ANY desirable cars) with manuals are appreciated faster then their automatic counterparts.

 

[exranger06]

I love driving stick as much as the next guy, but these threads lamenting the lack of vehicles with them are seriously

My CR-V is a stick, and it's basically the only reason I bought it. I was looking for a small SUV that would be good in the snow and be able to carry the kids around at the same time. Wasn't looking for any particular make or model. Then I saw the ad for it and saw it had a 5-speed. I figured if I had to get a boring, practical car, I might as well try to have a little fun rowing gears. It was in a little worse shape than I had hoped, but I still really wanted it, so I bought it and fixed it up. Overall I like it.

 

[02SE]

I have three vehicles with manual transmissions. One of which was only offered with a manual transmission. I bought them because I enjoy driving them. My latest truck was offered with a manual, but the engine was detuned with the manual, and the tow rating was greatly reduced too, so it ruled itself out. The other cars with Auto's are appliances, no driving joy, just A to B. My Motorcycles are all manual transmissions.

For driving/riding enjoyment, I prefer a manual transmission.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Ferrari no longer offers manual transmissions, with good reason.



OK, but just how many of even the best modern production car slushboxes are anywhere NEAR the level of that prancing horse's, totally engaging, race car comparable, SMG?

 

[ecotourist]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
I enjoy my (2) 5sp, but for 'stuck in traffic' type of driving, nothing better than the Prius.

Some people have a drive a manual and don't get their knickers in a twist about it.


It's called "wishing" the transmission into the next gear. I do something similar to that a lot of the time. I use 2 or 3 fingers. When I'm in a hurry I shift harder but that's not too often.

I taught my wife to double clutch (to save the synchronizers in -20 weather) and now she double clutches all the time.

In spite of many hard shifts (with a few spun tires - you have to have some fun), towing a boat, teaching my daughter how to drive a stick, some wishing it into the next gear, and some double clutching the clutch on my '86 Volvo 740 Turbo lasted to 185,000 Km (115,000 miles) when the linkage broke. And we could have just repaired the linkage but "since we were there anyway" we replaced the clutch as well. There was no consideration of doing anything other than repairing/replacing the clutch. I'm not so sure that would have been my response if I'd been asked to pay several thousand for a new or rebuilt auto.

In 55 years of driving that's the only clutch I've had to replace.

Driving a manual well is an art. I enjoy it.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver


OK, but just how many of even the best modern production car slushboxes are anywhere NEAR the level of that prancing horse's, totally engaging, race car comparable, SMG?

While the Ferrari video is an extreme example, there are many automatics that have no slush [a torque converter] at all in them. VW's DCT and Ford's Dual Clutch transmission (and others) come to mind. Similarly, the C7 Corvette has a conventional automatic that has been tuned for performance. It contains slush, yet responds so fast, with such accuracy, it competes with Porsche, Ferrari, and more. The Mustang 5.0's 10 speed is simply amazing, and is shared with GM.

And that leads to my point. ZF and others are building transmissions for the majors, and they are incredible.

 

[Andrew1972]

Wife diehard manual fan almost got a Golf Alltrack (VW version of Outback) but oddly the less expensive MSRP 6 speed manual cost more vs the automatic because of limited discount on “higher” demand manuals !? So we would have gotten the automatic for $2900 less.

In the end we chose Tiguan(only auto) over similar price Golf All track for a bit more space.

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
The manual transmission in my (turbo) Honda S2000 is among the most enjoyable ever made, with quick, easy precise shifts. It's a true joy to drive that car like an idiot.

However, the current crop of performance automatic transmissions are clearly a step ahead in performance. With near instant shifts, zero mistakes and integration with the vehicle's other inputs, including steering input, G loads, brake activation and so on.

Even the base model 2018 Corvette conventional automatic is so responsive and quick, there is no reason to demand a manual. The 10 speed auto in the new Mustang is also, quite simply, better than the manual option.

I'm so old, I remember when GM proudly offered the "Powerglide" 2 speed automatic. We would regularly hope it would shift into third! But those days are half a century behind us now. Today, a performance automatic is the right choice.

As someone who owns a S2000 and a BMW with the ZF 8AT, I couldn't agree more. The S2000 is a masterwork in that respect but the ZF 8AT in the BMW is the first automatic transmission I've not only liked but actually preferred. It's buttery smooth when it needs to be but can bang gears like a champ when using the paddles in sport mode, it's a fantastic transmission.