It might be a bit of a long listen even as a short episode from these guys, but I think it sheds some light on what's to blame for the direction the market is going and I tend to agree with Cammisa that unless some major regulation changes happen in Europe, the German manufacturers aren't going to be able to just give up on EVs.
The current state of the EV industry.
- Thread starter Torrid
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I like Cammisa and listened to this podcast this morning.
A few take-aways regarding his thoughts on EVs:
1. He lives in the optimal area to own one regarding charging infrastructure and climate.
2. He owns multiple vehicles in addition to driving press vehicles regularly. This is quite the opposite of the normal car buyer. I'm curious what his thoughts would be if his daily driver e-golf was his only option.
I agree they are not going away, but that is very different from suggesting they are the way forward for every single scenario. Allowing for diversity across the board and letting the market dictate sales will help with adoption, not forcing them on the masses. If I lived in CA, an EV would be more of a viable option than it is for me in rural New England.
One thing I certainly agree with are the offerings from certain manufacturers not helping with adoption. Mercedes joke of an EV, along with Ford's $100k EV pickup "for the masses".
A few take-aways regarding his thoughts on EVs:
1. He lives in the optimal area to own one regarding charging infrastructure and climate.
2. He owns multiple vehicles in addition to driving press vehicles regularly. This is quite the opposite of the normal car buyer. I'm curious what his thoughts would be if his daily driver e-golf was his only option.
I agree they are not going away, but that is very different from suggesting they are the way forward for every single scenario. Allowing for diversity across the board and letting the market dictate sales will help with adoption, not forcing them on the masses. If I lived in CA, an EV would be more of a viable option than it is for me in rural New England.
One thing I certainly agree with are the offerings from certain manufacturers not helping with adoption. Mercedes joke of an EV, along with Ford's $100k EV pickup "for the masses".
That was my only point, they're not going to be able to walk back EVs from an emissions standpoint.
The Ford can be had for $58k these days. I don't know that it was ever $100k. It definitely got close with the right trim to get there. The sticker on the one I'm looking at is $75k, but they'll let it go for the stated $58k. I still think that's a bit too high for the current market on leftover 2023s, but I'm thinking they'll come to their senses eventually.
The dealers at least in my area were very optimistic on their pricing of Lightnings. No real deals to be had. In fact there was considerable markup on different popular vehicles. With the market the way it is now, that has certainly diminished, but they aren't giving them away. I know dealer markup is different than the "list price" but a manufacturer can't claim their vehicles sell for "X" price when none of the ones available in a given area are selling for that price.
I think in my rural climate hybrids are the way to go.
Oh the markups. I can't believe how much some dealers have pushed them. I think long term they've done themselves more harm than good. Either got stuck with the vehicles longer and eventually had to discount, or actually sold them and for those that took loans for as much of the purchase as they could will be so upside down the dealer won't be able to make them a deal for awhile on the next one.
I said it before I'll say it again, Toyota didn't get to where they are from being stupid.
No, but the writing is on the wall about CAFE and even moreso with regulations around the world. If Toyota wants to make cars only for Japan and the US that might be an option as long as they stay ahead of CAFE. Look how successful the F series truck is and it would be nothing without the US market.
If that's the direction things need to head and it may be if the US consumer demands it, the global platform cars aren't long for the US market. It's only been the last 20 years that US manufacturers started making global cars instead of market specific ones. Maybe thats done. Seems Ford is already there. I don't think they have a single global platform car for sale in the US, unless there's an Escape variant outside the US. I know they call some EV an Explorer elsewhere, but it's a VW ID.4 shared platform.
My bet is on Toyota. ICE, Hybrid, and they'll be a contender in the EV market. They're far from stupid. 2035 is a pipe dream and they know it. November could be an EV game changer too, my fingers are crossed.
The 2035 Federal ICE ban isn't real. That's a state thing, not federal. If there's a company that can pull off meeting emissions standards as they cinch tighter, it's Toyota. It's one of the very few manufacturers that didn't give up on the small car and then just make stuff that qualifies as a truck to hit an easier CAFE target. Ford doesn't have a clue. I'm not sure GM cares to do so or at least if they do they aren't being public about it.
I don't see CAFE getting loosened and I don't think it should be. I also don't agree with an ICE ban. If Toyota doesn't pull it off with ICE and no one else is in the fight strongly, that's where it will likely end. If there's a company that can do it, it's Toyota. They're doing a horrible job with efficiency in their trucks though.
Pretty much agree with what you said, I highlighted this because I referred to it as a pipe dream for a reason. The people who started it and are trying to push it must have been smoking a pipe full of crack.
Cafe can and should be rolled back IMO, all it takes is the stroke of a pen. This time make it permanent.
You know that can’t happen. It was designed to specifically outpace the amount of vehicles added on the road to use less resources over time.
I’m fine with slowing the adjustment, but it absolutely needs to continue to tighten.
There were several Honda dealers in my area that marked up the Civic Type R to over $80k when it first came out.
I'm not an EV hater, I just feel my view of them is realistic. They absolutely have their place. They shine for short trips in densely populated cities where charging is more available, and the technology with the powered semi-trailers is a huge game changer. Some of the testing has shown the powered trailers basically doubled the fuel mileage of semis, and this is something more friendly to our infrastructure.
People telling me EVs are a one-size fits all solution when they don't yet match the convenience of gas across the board doesn't make sense. There are still areas of the US where gasoline range anxiety is still a real thing. Even with ICE there is not a one size fits all. We have gasoline, diesel, and propane vehicles for different use cases.
Historically Toyota has relied upon having simpler drivetrains to maintain their reliability reputation, such as using port injection while others had GDI and turbos, simple 4 speed automatics for years, etc.
My 2009 BMW 3-series achieved an average of 30 mpg highway at 80 mph driving back from Virginia last weekend, but it is certainly more complex than a comparable Camry V6.
It absolutly can and is likely to happen soon. This case will be overturned by the SCOTUS this term and is going to put a choker chain on the EPA and the rest of the alphabet soup agencies.
Americans (especially car-noids like us) are going to win biggly.
Supreme Court likely to discard Chevron - SCOTUSblog
It has been nearly 40 years since the Supreme Court indicated in Chevron v. Natural Resources Defense Council that courts should defer to an agency’s reasonable interpretation of an ambiguous statute. After more than three-and-a-half hours of oral argument on Wednesday, it seemed unlikely that the r
www.scotusblog.com
the old tundras were terrible, that's the reason I didn't buy one when I was looking. 3.50 a gallon at 13 mpg and 150k miles is = $40384
same number using 17 mpg is $30882. that's a difference of 10k over the course of ownership.
Maybe I should rephrase that. It would be hugely poor step to roll it back. I’m not saying someone isn’t dumb enough to actually suggest we should go backwards in air quality, but it should be slowed and sure as heck not reversed.It absolutly can and is likely to happen soon. This case will be overturned by the SCOTUS this term and it will put a choker chain on the EPA and the rest of the alphabet soup agencies.
Americans (especially car-noids like us) are going to win biggly.
Supreme Court likely to discard Chevron - SCOTUSblog
It has been nearly 40 years since the Supreme Court indicated in Chevron v. Natural Resources Defense Council that courts should defer to an agency’s reasonable interpretation of an ambiguous statute. After more than three-and-a-half hours of oral argument on Wednesday, it seemed unlikely that the r
