"The Car Doctor" discusses extended OCI

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
So much depends upon how the car is used.
An IOLM helps in this regard, but Toyota doesn't go to that expense and just makes a blanket recommendation of 10K OCIs.
Let's say I drive my car to work and you do the same.
Let's say that my drive to work is 25 miles (it is) and yours is five miles.
Who can go longer on an OCI?
Easy to figure out for most here but most users don't have a clue.
Oils and oil filters differ in quality, but the typical user has no idea about that either.
They may think that using mediocre Toyota Genuine branded oil filters and TGMO is the best they can do for their cars and they'd be badly mistaken.
Finally, the oil consumption problems many Toyota engines exhibit have nothing to do with drain intervals and everything to do with faulty design.
"Faulty design"? I have FOUR Toyota Camrys and none of them burn any oil that I notice , including a '99 I 4 with 350,000 miles on it. I'm sure you know more than the Toyota engineers, though.

 

[Rat407]

Wasn't VW having all kinds of cam issues in their diesel's? Around here the dealerships recommend 10k changes on both gas and diesel.

 

[RichardS]

Originally Posted By: benjy
there are NO free lunches at the Stealers!!! they will get your $$$$ anyway they can as they have big overhead that requires big income! if you dont know anything about your car or truck fine an honest independent thru references from others as smaller shops can survive on lower rates because they have less overhead!! reading on-line can teach you a lot for sure!


Isn't that the truth?! Buick in Orlando wanted (ironically) $666 plus tax for wires and plugs on the century.

 

[Ron_Ananian]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: Ron_Ananian
Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
This week, "The Car Doctor" received a call from BITOG member "Motorking" (Jay Buckley) of Fram. Jay informed Ron of the Fram "Ultra" filter and its extended range.

As Ron is discussing the topic, it sounds like Ron thinks the biggest potential problem with people extending their OCI is the fact that they will see their mechanic less frequently and, therefore, may be doing themselves a disservice by not keeping as close of watch on the condition of their vehicles. I'll let you be the judge - it's an interesting discussion on Ron's part as well as his interaction with a caller about this topic.

If you want to hear the abridged version of the conversation, it's here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/n5wtkkmyyn0fgbx/Car_Doctor_discusses_extended_OCI.mp3?dl=0 and if you want to hear the entire show, it's here: http://www.tomrayconsulting.com/car_doc_audio/car_doctor_2pm_03182017.mp3 and here: http://www.tomrayconsulting.com/car_doc_audio/car_doctor_3pm_03182017.mp3

Ed



I might as well join in this discussion....yes,. one of my concerns is people not having their cars looked at on a regular basis. To my knowledge Toyota does "free" looks at mileage intervals when tied into another service, such as an oil change. As for the quality of their filters, based on my conversation with Jay, it is a good 7500 mile filter, no more. (Jay, if I misunderstood you please correct me). The rating for filters is based on grams per mile and that is the number being used. As for longer intervals; it seems the industry is being dragged that way regardless of what anyone else wishes, thinks or decides; Engineering is creating this. Yet many dealer techs; very smart guys that do this EVERY day still change their own oil on shorter than manufacturer standards. And every one of them says the same thing; "its the cheapest insurance for longevity". Their words, not mine alone. so yes, with a CORRECT high mileage filter and extended range oil go ahead; but don't bely the fact that you still need to check the oil level (as well as other under hood fluids) on a regular basis.

Here is one for the thought process; with longer oil change intervals more TPMS lights come on; just from changes in the season and temperature; with "free" air a thing of the past who will cover the time spent to fill tires for free and rest systems if needed? I know dealers don't do that so I guess the indy shops are stuck with it as the corner garage....

There are many reasons why extended range oil changes have the potential for an issue of other types; its not just about the oil. But for the record I had dinner recently with a good friend who is the service manager of a large Toyota dealership; his words; "the oil consumption issues that plague Camry, Corolla's and the rest started when corporate upped the oil interval; and its not getting better" end quote. So you tell me; is the OCI really doing a service or not? Remember too; people listen and comprehend at different levels; if I press the point that ALL OCI"s are good till manufacture spec in a blind statement I am performing a disservice; auto repair is not something that a mass statement can be applied to and stick; there are some very unique situations that occur on a daily basis...and really the last thought...what about the 17 other brands? How do they handle "service" in between oil changes? Fact is the lowly oil change is the cornerstone of maintaining much more than just oil on a car....Ron
My 08 V6 Camry has NO oil consumption issue. "Corporate" must have let mine slip by.


I'm guessing here that you are doing longer OCI's but with better oil and filter? If so that could be one of the reasons...

 

[DuckRyder]

The only thing that worries me about Toyota spin on filters is that they don’t have silicone ADBV. As long as you do the 10K in a relatively short time you’re probably still OK. That said a family members GIII Prius has been on 10K since new and hasn’t had any issues is approaching 100,000 on TGMO and Toyota filters.

The newer printing of the Factory Service manual for my Civic says 10,000 miles or one year and to use the filter for two intervals. It doesn’t burn any oil between changes.

People should check their tires and oil more often than they do... I’m frankly shocked at some of the garbage people will drive around, but most of those folks wouldn’t fix it even if you told them...

Frankly I think most newer stuff in good operating condition will do 10K on quality oil and filters... I’d use an Ultra for 2 10K interval without a care in the world, I’m a little more skeptical of a Honda A01 or A02...

 

[doitmyself]

Originally Posted By: Ron_Ananian
Look, I get it....oil changes can go longer, but it is still the cheapest insurance for the masses. Remember most everyone here is a car person; the ones that are not still don't understand what we change the oil into when we change it (read that line slowly) cause yes I still get that question in the shop.....Fact is the lowly oil change is the cornerstone of maintaining much more than just oil on a car....Ron

This seems to sum up your stance in a nutshell. Thank you for providing a much different perspective to a group that wears some pretty tight blinders. With today's car design heading more towards "idiot proof",there will be even more disconnect between owners and vehicle maintenance. Your view reinforces how out of touch we "car people" are with the real world. Thanks again.

 

[CapitalTruck]

Ron, faithful listener of your show. Pleasure having you post here. I actually just heard the podcast before checking in on the board for the night. I have a '13 Silverado with a non-AFM (cylinder deactivation) engine. I'm sure I could go longer, and many would say I am throwing my money away, but I continue to change my oil at 5000 miles or 200 hours, whichever comes first. Why do I do this? Because you and Pat Goss continue to advocate non-extended changes. I only use Mobil 1. Could I go longer? I'm sure. But with a 5 quart M1 jug at $25 bucks and a Delco filter at $4.50, I'm not losing my hat and I like the prospect of driving this guy out to 500k. Plus, you never know what's going to come down the pike. Everyone here should remember when GM put the 7.5k maximum on their OLM due to some problems in some vehicles, that's far less than the 10k oci the olm in my sisters Cruze occasionally advised. I guess I just don't get the thrill out of maxing out an OCI. Thanks for contributing.

 

[cb_13]

Originally Posted By: benjy
there are NO free lunches at the Stealers!!! they will get your $$$$ anyway they can as they have big overhead that requires big income! if you dont know anything about your car or truck fine an honest independent thru references from others as smaller shops can survive on lower rates because they have less overhead!! reading on-line can teach you a lot for sure!


The dealership I work at fills tires and resets TPMS lights for free. I know several of the tire shops in town charge to reset them.

It's fun to stereotype though isn't it?

 

[zeng]

Ron's perspective from general car drivers is real and appropriate.
.... and having moved on to see things from the perspective of a repairman ......
and then seeing same from the perspective of 'oil in itself' .......
my opinions/pov on OCI's changes ... as our assumptions/judgements/experiences shifts.

 

[cb_13]

Originally Posted By: Ron_Ananian
Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
As part of the free Toyota 2year/25k service there are inspections and rotations that are included every 5k miles. Which kind of diminishes his claim that the car isn't looked at for 10k miles.


And then what happens after the 2 year mark? The vehicle owner has now been TRAINED for longer OCI's and ignores the other service because it COSTS money; but there is some truth in your statement; when we purchased a new 2014 Ford Escape 2 1/2 years ago the vehicle came with a booklet for the services required; everything from power steering fluid, trans & brake fluid flushes starting at 15K miles to 30K services that were way overpriced and also unneeded. OCI intervals and service needs to be consistent; and as the vehicle ages it needs more, not less. Most dealers from my seat oversell service from the start and once the vehicle hits 60K wean it down; the money market closes and they push the owner into a new vehicle. Clearly there is much more going on in servicing a car today than most people want to discuss.


Packages such as those which are pushed by the chemical additive companies and many dealerships are just too expensive for the average vehicle owner. Ford and GM have both issued either service messages or letters to the dealers about not recommending such services. They insinuate that it makes the cost of ownership seem to high and will influence them to purchase a competitive make vehicle. They recommend following the scheduled maintenance in the owners manual.

 

[tig1]

As most here know I have been doing 10K OCIs for the last 39 years in all types on engines and all types of driving conditions. 10K is what's normal for me, and when I see folks here fret over shorter OCIs I roll my eyes a bit.

 

[Ron_Ananian]

Originally Posted By: cb_13
Originally Posted By: benjy
there are NO free lunches at the Stealers!!! they will get your $$$$ anyway they can as they have big overhead that requires big income! if you dont know anything about your car or truck fine an honest independent thru references from others as smaller shops can survive on lower rates because they have less overhead!! reading on-line can teach you a lot for sure!


The dealership I work at fills tires and resets TPMS lights for free. I know several of the tire shops in town charge to reset them.

It's fun to stereotype though isn't it?


No stereotype; no dealer around us does that; first I am hearing of it....so you're telling me a dealer tech in the middle of a repair is pulled off to put air in someone's tires? What do they do, roll up to the door and look for someone with nothing to do? they don't filter through a service writer to get their free air? WOW?

 

[Y_K]

Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
I guess I just don't get the thrill out of maxing out an OCI.


Oh my, it's so European.. like an offer of Pellegrino water from your cab driver..

 

[Timo325]

The point is valid, some people do not look under the hood at all

He did not discuss application at all reference the 10K mile oil change.. which we all know makes a big difference.

 

[KrisZ]

What's the obsession with the oil filters on here? I've opened many filters on my cars, which are well maintained, and there is usually only a few specs in the media. I understand that the filter is designed to hold a certain amount of particulates before going into the bypass mode, but where is the data that the "cheap" filters reach that point on normally maintained vehicles?
If the engine doesn't produce the amount of particulate matter to load up a filter, what's the difference what kind of oil filter is use?

So far all I see is another marketing ploy, like UOA's.

 

[fdcg27]

An engine which cannot maintain low oil consumption for any reasonable length of vehicle use when maintained as recommended by the manufacturer is by definition a faulty design.
The problem many of these engines seem to have involves inadequate drainage from the ring lands.
Oil sits in a very hot region and therefore cokes.
This is a known problem on many years of Corolla and shorter drains may not be of any help.

 

[fdcg27]

It's not a matter of my knowing more than Toyota engineers.
Rather, it's a matter of too many Camry and Corolla owners seeing absurdly high oil consumption on cars with well under 100K of use.
No arguing with that.
Vintage Toyotas were probably better designed and built cars overall than is true these days.
The same is probably true of Honda products as well.
Evidence of cheap-think pervades many current cars and I doubt that this is true only of those pieces that you can see.

 

[cb_13]

Originally Posted By: Ron_Ananian
Originally Posted By: cb_13
Originally Posted By: benjy
there are NO free lunches at the Stealers!!! they will get your $$$$ anyway they can as they have big overhead that requires big income! if you dont know anything about your car or truck fine an honest independent thru references from others as smaller shops can survive on lower rates because they have less overhead!! reading on-line can teach you a lot for sure!


The dealership I work at fills tires and resets TPMS lights for free. I know several of the tire shops in town charge to reset them.

It's fun to stereotype though isn't it?


No stereotype; no dealer around us does that; first I am hearing of it....so you're telling me a dealer tech in the middle of a repair is pulled off to put air in someone's tires? What do they do, roll up to the door and look for someone with nothing to do? they don't filter through a service writer to get their free air? WOW?


Most of the time it's one of the advisors that will add air. They keep a combination air chuck/gauge and a TPMS reset tool at the desk. If not they'll get one of the lube techs to do it.

If the parts are bought here(usually even if they're not) we'll put in simple to access bulbs, air filters, wiper blades and cabin air filters(like bulbs only if they're easily accessible)for free.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: cb_13

The dealership I work at fills tires and resets TPMS lights for free. I know several of the tire shops in town charge to reset them.

It's fun to stereotype though isn't it?


Same here.

 

[Ron_Ananian]

Did a quick phone survey yesterday at lunch. Ford, GM and Nissan dealer. Nissan is the only one that will add air with a smile, the lube kids do it.(this was an added service recently.) Ford has a separate oil change location to keep the add air people away and even at the oil change place its discouraged. GM the same. Both follow the bring your car in for service on a regular basis and become a customer; even then we'll talk it seems. Issue I see (and there are a few) is they stop what they are doing to go outside, bring the car in and check pressure, all no charge. Customer service I suppose but what happens to the non customer? We've all been there and in the end it does hurt production. And as the car gets more complex even adding air to tires or topping oil will increase in time needed and effort made/all for free??? You can't put "free" in the bank to pay bills and while it is good advertising it needs to be balanced and fair....something that is hard to do today. In some situations NO is a good word; perhaps the future of auto repair will include a "minor" service in between the 20K OCI; Tire Rotation, Fluid Level Check, Visual Inspection and Road test on a 7K service interval. Something to think about.