"The Car Doctor" discusses extended OCI

[Ed_Flecko]

This week, "The Car Doctor" received a call from BITOG member "Motorking" (Jay Buckley) of Fram. Jay informed Ron of the Fram "Ultra" filter and its extended range.

As Ron is discussing the topic, it sounds like Ron thinks the biggest potential problem with people extending their OCI is the fact that they will see their mechanic less frequently and, therefore, may be doing themselves a disservice by not keeping as close of watch on the condition of their vehicles. I'll let you be the judge - it's an interesting discussion on Ron's part as well as his interaction with a caller about this topic.

If you want to hear the abridged version of the conversation, it's here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/n5wtkkmyyn0fgbx/Car_Doctor_discusses_extended_OCI.mp3?dl=0 and if you want to hear the entire show, it's here: http://www.tomrayconsulting.com/car_doc_audio/car_doctor_2pm_03182017.mp3 and here: http://www.tomrayconsulting.com/car_doc_audio/car_doctor_3pm_03182017.mp3

Ed

 

[Quattro Pete]

Sounds like within a week he's changed his stance and now he's OK with 10K OCI.

 

[Ed_Flecko]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
So within a week he's changed his stance and now he's OK with 10K OCI.

That's sure what it sounds like to me too!

Ed

 

[SatinSilver]

As part of the free Toyota 2year/25k service there are inspections and rotations that are included every 5k miles. Which kind of diminishes his claim that the car isn't looked at for 10k miles.

 

[bullwinkle]

There's a bit of a difference between a brand new Toyota (or even a properly maintained broken-in, non-sludge monster engine) and what a filter is likely to catch in an abused, short tripped application. The former can probably go 10K without catching much of anything, where the latter could be in bypass-only mode by 5K!

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
As Ron is discussing the topic, it sounds like Ron thinks the biggest potential problem with people extending their OCI is the fact that they will see their mechanic less frequently and, therefore, may be doing themselves a disservice by not keeping as close of watch on the condition of their vehicles.

A very good Toyota mechanic I know tells me that the biggest problem is procrastination: If you tell most folks 3K, that's when they start "thinking" about bringing the car in. By the time they actually do bring the car in, it's at 5K. If you tell them 5K, they actually bring it in at 8K. And so on and so on... He says he sees this every day.

I'd bet that if you tell people 10K, they'll be rolling in at 15K or 20K. And ending up on Reddit's JustRolledIntoTheShop

 

[Ron_Ananian]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
This week, "The Car Doctor" received a call from BITOG member "Motorking" (Jay Buckley) of Fram. Jay informed Ron of the Fram "Ultra" filter and its extended range.

As Ron is discussing the topic, it sounds like Ron thinks the biggest potential problem with people extending their OCI is the fact that they will see their mechanic less frequently and, therefore, may be doing themselves a disservice by not keeping as close of watch on the condition of their vehicles. I'll let you be the judge - it's an interesting discussion on Ron's part as well as his interaction with a caller about this topic.

If you want to hear the abridged version of the conversation, it's here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/n5wtkkmyyn0fgbx/Car_Doctor_discusses_extended_OCI.mp3?dl=0 and if you want to hear the entire show, it's here: http://www.tomrayconsulting.com/car_doc_audio/car_doctor_2pm_03182017.mp3 and here: http://www.tomrayconsulting.com/car_doc_audio/car_doctor_3pm_03182017.mp3

Ed



I might as well join in this discussion....yes,. one of my concerns is people not having their cars looked at on a regular basis. To my knowledge Toyota does "free" looks at mileage intervals when tied into another service, such as an oil change. As for the quality of their filters, based on my conversation with Jay, it is a good 7500 mile filter, no more. (Jay, if I misunderstood you please correct me). The rating for filters is based on grams per mile and that is the number being used. As for longer intervals; it seems the industry is being dragged that way regardless of what anyone else wishes, thinks or decides; Engineering is creating this. Yet many dealer techs; very smart guys that do this EVERY day still change their own oil on shorter than manufacturer standards. And every one of them says the same thing; "its the cheapest insurance for longevity". Their words, not mine alone. so yes, with a CORRECT high mileage filter and extended range oil go ahead; but don't bely the fact that you still need to check the oil level (as well as other under hood fluids) on a regular basis.

Here is one for the thought process; with longer oil change intervals more TPMS lights come on; just from changes in the season and temperature; with "free" air a thing of the past who will cover the time spent to fill tires for free and rest systems if needed? I know dealers don't do that so I guess the indy shops are stuck with it as the corner garage....

There are many reasons why extended range oil changes have the potential for an issue of other types; its not just about the oil. But for the record I had dinner recently with a good friend who is the service manager of a large Toyota dealership; his words; "the oil consumption issues that plague Camry, Corolla's and the rest started when corporate upped the oil interval; and its not getting better" end quote. So you tell me; is the OCI really doing a service or not? Remember too; people listen and comprehend at different levels; if I press the point that ALL OCI"s are good till manufacture spec in a blind statement I am performing a disservice; auto repair is not something that a mass statement can be applied to and stick; there are some very unique situations that occur on a daily basis...and really the last thought...what about the 17 other brands? How do they handle "service" in between oil changes? Fact is the lowly oil change is the cornerstone of maintaining much more than just oil on a car....Ron

 

[Ron_Ananian]

Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
As part of the free Toyota 2year/25k service there are inspections and rotations that are included every 5k miles. Which kind of diminishes his claim that the car isn't looked at for 10k miles.


And then what happens after the 2 year mark? The vehicle owner has now been TRAINED for longer OCI's and ignores the other service because it COSTS money; but there is some truth in your statement; when we purchased a new 2014 Ford Escape 2 1/2 years ago the vehicle came with a booklet for the services required; everything from power steering fluid, trans & brake fluid flushes starting at 15K miles to 30K services that were way overpriced and also unneeded. OCI intervals and service needs to be consistent; and as the vehicle ages it needs more, not less. Most dealers from my seat oversell service from the start and once the vehicle hits 60K wean it down; the money market closes and they push the owner into a new vehicle. Clearly there is much more going on in servicing a car today than most people want to discuss.

 

[Ron_Ananian]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
So within a week he's changed his stance and now he's OK with 10K OCI.

That's sure what it sounds like to me too!

Ed


Remember most people don't know the difference between a cheap and good oil filter; to most oil is oil; yes, with an extended range filter and oil I am ok with a 10K change; I don't prefer it on my own vehicles for multiple reasons but everyone is free to change it at their own pace; just do it correctly. AND DEAL WITH ANY OTHER SERVICVE CONSEQUENCES IN BETWEEN...did you know that many manufacturers recommend checking oil level on a regular basis after so many miles into the last change? Can't tell you how many cars comes into the shop over due on their OCI and the vehicle is down 3 quarts on a 4.5 quart system.....

 

[Ed_Flecko]

Ron,
Welcome to the group!

From any mechanic's perspective, it doesn't really matter to you if someone wants to push the limits of their oil and filter, does it (yes, that's an honest question and no...I'm not being cynical)? If they cause damage to their car, they're going to bring it to you for service anyway, correct?

Oh sure, their repair bill might be quite a bit higher, but that's their own fault, correct?

Ed

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Ron_Ananian
did you know that many manufacturers recommend checking oil level on a regular basis after so many miles into the last change? Can't tell you how many cars comes into the shop over due on their OCI and the vehicle is down 3 quarts on a 4.5 quart system.....

The cars I know of with extended OCI recommendations also come with oil level sensors that will tell you if you are starting to run low on oil. Not sure if the Toyota in question has one of these. Granted, a sensor can also malfunction, but the idea was to not have to rely solely on the owner to pop the hood on a regular basis because most owners just don't.

 

[Ron_Ananian]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
Ron,
Welcome to the group!

From any mechanic's perspective, it doesn't really matter to you if someone wants to push the limits of their oil and filter, does it (yes, that's an honest question and no...I'm not being cynical)? If they cause damage to their car, they're going to bring it to you for service anyway, correct?

Oh sure, their repair bill might be quite a bit higher, but that's their own fault, correct?

Ed


HI Ed, thanks for taking me in....

Engine work is not desirable or affordable any longer; here ins North Jersey there isn't even an engine machine shop; they are all gone; for assorted reasons; lack of business being the primary; in other parts of the country I am sure its different. But bottom line the way cars are made today you don't want to have to take an engine apart; very costly and time consuming. It is far easier and more cost effective to maintain than REPAIR; but I understand you point; when it breaks we would see it. Real world though when it needs an engine it usually needs a car....let's assume an engine failure at 125,000 miles on a Toyota Corolla; long block installed aprox $3500 to $4000. Now most people will then consider the age (lets say its 6 years old) and what else major can go wrong...they start thinking about the trans, tires, brakes, timing belt if equipped..at that point its cheaper for them to go back to a monthly payment in their minds than repair it....BUT if they had done a shorter OCI and we (or their mechanic) had kept an eye on things; oil level, coolant leaks, etc. then that engine would probably last the life of the vehicle. Look, I get it....oil changes can go longer, but it is still the cheapest insurance for the masses. Remember most everyone here is a car person; the ones that are not still don't understand what we change the oil into when we change it (read that line slowly) cause yes I still get that question in the shop.

 

[Ron_Ananian]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Ron_Ananian
did you know that many manufacturers recommend checking oil level on a regular basis after so many miles into the last change? Can't tell you how many cars comes into the shop over due on their OCI and the vehicle is down 3 quarts on a 4.5 quart system.....

The cars I know of with extended OCI recommendations also come with oil level sensors that will tell you if you are starting to run low on oil. Not sure if the Toyota in question has one of these. Granted, a sensor can also malfunction, but the idea was to not have to rely solely on the owner to pop the hood on a regular basis because most owners just don't.


Hi Pete; Audi comes to mind; had an 08 in the shop a while back; owners manual stated "after 4000 miles check oil level once a month". I'm thinking most don't do that cause most don't even read the manual. And you are correct; sensors do fail but it is equipped; but what happens if the light comes on in the middle of night on a long trip in bad weather? You probably have a quart in your trunk; where will the masses have it?

 

[fdcg27]

So much depends upon how the car is used.
An IOLM helps in this regard, but Toyota doesn't go to that expense and just makes a blanket recommendation of 10K OCIs.
Let's say I drive my car to work and you do the same.
Let's say that my drive to work is 25 miles (it is) and yours is five miles.
Who can go longer on an OCI?
Easy to figure out for most here but most users don't have a clue.
Oils and oil filters differ in quality, but the typical user has no idea about that either.
They may think that using mediocre Toyota Genuine branded oil filters and TGMO is the best they can do for their cars and they'd be badly mistaken.
Finally, the oil consumption problems many Toyota engines exhibit have nothing to do with drain intervals and everything to do with faulty design.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Ron_Ananian
what happens if the light comes on in the middle of night on a long trip in bad weather? You probably have a quart in your trunk; where will the masses have it?

The idea is that when the warning comes on, you can still keep driving for some time. It normally says "please check oil level at next fuel up" or something like that. Now you are hoping that the gas station has the correct oil available. If you have a German car, that's not always the case, but they allow to use pretty much any high quality synthetic for top offs.

 

[Ron_Ananian]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Ron_Ananian
what happens if the light comes on in the middle of night on a long trip in bad weather? You probably have a quart in your trunk; where will the masses have it?

The idea is that when the warning comes on, you can still keep driving for some time. It normally says "please check oil level at next fuel up" or something like that. Now you are hoping that the gas station has the correct oil available. If you have a German car, that's not always the case, but they allow to use pretty much any high quality synthetic for top offs.

Right, we HOPE they have the correct oil;;;but point taken.

 

[SatinSilver]

Hey Welcome back Ron_Ananian!

 

[Ron_Ananian]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
So much depends upon how the car is used.
An IOLM helps in this regard, but Toyota doesn't go to that expense and just makes a blanket recommendation of 10K OCIs.
Let's say I drive my car to work and you do the same.
Let's say that my drive to work is 25 miles (it is) and yours is five miles.
Who can go longer on an OCI?
Easy to figure out for most here but most users don't have a clue.
Oils and oil filters differ in quality, but the typical user has no idea about that either.
They may think that using mediocre Toyota Genuine branded oil filters and TGMO is the best they can do for their cars and they'd be badly mistaken.
Finally, the oil consumption problems many Toyota engines exhibit have nothing to do with drain intervals and everything to do with faulty design.


Actually my sources at Toyota tell me the main reason for the oil consumption issues is the longer OCI increased varnish content and led to higher incidences of sticky/stuck oil rings which were made as low tension for less drag and higher MPG...the scenario for the perfect storm....and if they did have to do with faulty design I ask myself why? After all this time they lost their way on how to make/design a piston engine?

 

[benjy]

there are NO free lunches at the Stealers!!! they will get your $$$$ anyway they can as they have big overhead that requires big income! if you dont know anything about your car or truck fine an honest independent thru references from others as smaller shops can survive on lower rates because they have less overhead!! reading on-line can teach you a lot for sure!

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Ron_Ananian
Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
This week, "The Car Doctor" received a call from BITOG member "Motorking" (Jay Buckley) of Fram. Jay informed Ron of the Fram "Ultra" filter and its extended range.

As Ron is discussing the topic, it sounds like Ron thinks the biggest potential problem with people extending their OCI is the fact that they will see their mechanic less frequently and, therefore, may be doing themselves a disservice by not keeping as close of watch on the condition of their vehicles. I'll let you be the judge - it's an interesting discussion on Ron's part as well as his interaction with a caller about this topic.

If you want to hear the abridged version of the conversation, it's here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/n5wtkkmyyn0fgbx/Car_Doctor_discusses_extended_OCI.mp3?dl=0 and if you want to hear the entire show, it's here: http://www.tomrayconsulting.com/car_doc_audio/car_doctor_2pm_03182017.mp3 and here: http://www.tomrayconsulting.com/car_doc_audio/car_doctor_3pm_03182017.mp3

Ed



I might as well join in this discussion....yes,. one of my concerns is people not having their cars looked at on a regular basis. To my knowledge Toyota does "free" looks at mileage intervals when tied into another service, such as an oil change. As for the quality of their filters, based on my conversation with Jay, it is a good 7500 mile filter, no more. (Jay, if I misunderstood you please correct me). The rating for filters is based on grams per mile and that is the number being used. As for longer intervals; it seems the industry is being dragged that way regardless of what anyone else wishes, thinks or decides; Engineering is creating this. Yet many dealer techs; very smart guys that do this EVERY day still change their own oil on shorter than manufacturer standards. And every one of them says the same thing; "its the cheapest insurance for longevity". Their words, not mine alone. so yes, with a CORRECT high mileage filter and extended range oil go ahead; but don't bely the fact that you still need to check the oil level (as well as other under hood fluids) on a regular basis.

Here is one for the thought process; with longer oil change intervals more TPMS lights come on; just from changes in the season and temperature; with "free" air a thing of the past who will cover the time spent to fill tires for free and rest systems if needed? I know dealers don't do that so I guess the indy shops are stuck with it as the corner garage....

There are many reasons why extended range oil changes have the potential for an issue of other types; its not just about the oil. But for the record I had dinner recently with a good friend who is the service manager of a large Toyota dealership; his words; "the oil consumption issues that plague Camry, Corolla's and the rest started when corporate upped the oil interval; and its not getting better" end quote. So you tell me; is the OCI really doing a service or not? Remember too; people listen and comprehend at different levels; if I press the point that ALL OCI"s are good till manufacture spec in a blind statement I am performing a disservice; auto repair is not something that a mass statement can be applied to and stick; there are some very unique situations that occur on a daily basis...and really the last thought...what about the 17 other brands? How do they handle "service" in between oil changes? Fact is the lowly oil change is the cornerstone of maintaining much more than just oil on a car....Ron
My 08 V6 Camry has NO oil consumption issue. "Corporate" must have let mine slip by.