The ATF "lifetime fluid" lie continues
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That's normal. All of the WS formulations will turn dark purple very quickly.You can't tell how the fluid looks just by looking at the dipstick. All transmission fluids have a temperature range in which they last "lifetime". If your car is driven only on highway, the transmission temperature will seldom go above 175 F. That can last indefinitelly.
But if you drive in a southern latitude, modern city, with stop and go traffic and temperatures in summer around 100F, then the transmission fluid will definitely hit 200+ F. And that quickly shortens the life of that fluid. No matter who designed that car.
Want to see an OE Toyota transmission fluid at 73k miles driven in city (transmission that you seem to think it's designed by magical elves)? Here it is from my 2011 RAV4, drained this year:
doesn't look bad to me....You can't tell how the fluid looks just by looking at the dipstick. All transmission fluids have a temperature range in which they last "lifetime". If your car is driven only on highway, the transmission temperature will seldom go above 175 F. That can last indefinitelly.
But if you drive in a southern latitude, modern city, with stop and go traffic and temperatures in summer around 100F, then the transmission fluid will definitely hit 200+ F. And that quickly shortens the life of that fluid. No matter who designed that car.
Want to see an OE Toyota transmission fluid at 73k miles driven in city (transmission that you seem to think it's designed by magical elves)? Here it is from my 2011 RAV4, drained this year:
Do you want them to change the fluid or will you do it yourself ?
I have changed fluids in probably 6-7 of my vehicles. Only a 2011 Kia Soul was that dark at 70k miles, none of others (two Hyundai with Mitsubishi transmission, three Fords) changed color so drastically. I flushed the RAV4 with a three Valvoline MaxLife changes and as the final fill I used AISIN WS - supposedly full synthetic. I don't trust a fluid that "oxidizes".
Will see.
It's a lie that's been around a long, long time. From the 1972 AMC owner's manual (covers all models) in the "Maintenance" chapter, automatic transmission section:
"For cars in all regular uses, no maintenance is required, except to check fluid level at 6,000 mile intervals." (Emphasis on the word "no" is printed that way in the manual.)
There are two types of transmissions.
1) Crap designs, where it's going to fail. They tell you to change the fluid shorter than the warranty period to try to reduce their warranty replacement costs. I see some nonsense like 30K mi, and that's just a very clear sign it's a joke of a design where the automaker thought "screw you, we're saving money making crap then placing a burden on you to document your religious attention to it or else void the warranty". It is a very offensive thing to thrust upon owners.
2) Solid designs. They will usually go at least 200K mi, BUT if you want to extend that further, it's best to change the fluid at about 75K intervals.
Remember that most good transmission designs, last longer than the rest of the vehicle does. Granted that also accounts for average life including vehicles totaled in an accident, but ultimately a good design does not need an ATF change but once in it's lifetime unless there is a severe duty use like driving like you stole it, or towing.
I'm sure there are people out there who are rabid defenders of the brand they own and somehow justify a bad transmission design with "gotta maintain it". No. It is true, you have to maintain it, because it's crap, not because it's some normal thing to do with modern high quality ATF.
1) Crap designs, where it's going to fail. They tell you to change the fluid shorter than the warranty period to try to reduce their warranty replacement costs. I see some nonsense like 30K mi, and that's just a very clear sign it's a joke of a design where the automaker thought "screw you, we're saving money making crap then placing a burden on you to document your religious attention to it or else void the warranty". It is a very offensive thing to thrust upon owners.
2) Solid designs. They will usually go at least 200K mi, BUT if you want to extend that further, it's best to change the fluid at about 75K intervals.
Remember that most good transmission designs, last longer than the rest of the vehicle does. Granted that also accounts for average life including vehicles totaled in an accident, but ultimately a good design does not need an ATF change but once in it's lifetime unless there is a severe duty use like driving like you stole it, or towing.
I'm sure there are people out there who are rabid defenders of the brand they own and somehow justify a bad transmission design with "gotta maintain it". No. It is true, you have to maintain it, because it's crap, not because it's some normal thing to do with modern high quality ATF.
That's fanboy attitude (my car is better, and validates that I make great decisions).
Even the manufacturers, that rate their transmission fluid "lifetime", say in the owner manual that is just for light-medium usage.
People claim that they have 200k miles on original fluid, but they don't say that 90% of that was done on highway conditions - low load, great air flow, low transmission temperatures. You can usually spot them because the had driven 30,000+ miles per year.
That doesn't apply at all for cars driven in city traffic (frequent gear shifting, heavy TC usage), in southern part of US (90-100F outdoor temps). Then 200F transmission temperatures are reached frequently. Temperature is the main transmission killer, not "miles".
If one drives with locked torque converter, constant 60mph speed, he can probably drive to the Moon and back without any wear on the transmission.
PS: My RAV4 with Towing Package, not towing, on highway gets 180-185F transmission temperature even when outside is 95-100F. I can drive for hours in 5th gear, TC locked and cruise control on. Basically it equals the engine temperature, no clutches wear, seals are just fine. It can last forever indeed.
But when I commute to work, in stop and go traffic, averaging 20mph, with 1000's of cars heating up the pavement to the point that I see outside temps at 10-20 degree higher than the air temperature in shade, then I see the transmission temperature creeping up to 200-210F. Heck some days I saw 220F when I wasn't moving at all (I needed AC, so the engine was running). And yes, the fans were blowing at high speed, but that doesn't cover the transmission. The hot air from the rad is forced out towards the bottom of engine bay, passing by the transmission case.
It's not the same at all.
Even the manufacturers, that rate their transmission fluid "lifetime", say in the owner manual that is just for light-medium usage.
People claim that they have 200k miles on original fluid, but they don't say that 90% of that was done on highway conditions - low load, great air flow, low transmission temperatures. You can usually spot them because the had driven 30,000+ miles per year.
That doesn't apply at all for cars driven in city traffic (frequent gear shifting, heavy TC usage), in southern part of US (90-100F outdoor temps). Then 200F transmission temperatures are reached frequently. Temperature is the main transmission killer, not "miles".
If one drives with locked torque converter, constant 60mph speed, he can probably drive to the Moon and back without any wear on the transmission.
PS: My RAV4 with Towing Package, not towing, on highway gets 180-185F transmission temperature even when outside is 95-100F. I can drive for hours in 5th gear, TC locked and cruise control on. Basically it equals the engine temperature, no clutches wear, seals are just fine. It can last forever indeed.
But when I commute to work, in stop and go traffic, averaging 20mph, with 1000's of cars heating up the pavement to the point that I see outside temps at 10-20 degree higher than the air temperature in shade, then I see the transmission temperature creeping up to 200-210F. Heck some days I saw 220F when I wasn't moving at all (I needed AC, so the engine was running). And yes, the fans were blowing at high speed, but that doesn't cover the transmission. The hot air from the rad is forced out towards the bottom of engine bay, passing by the transmission case.
It's not the same at all.
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I'm debating when to do the CVT fluid in the Outback, I think we are going to run it as long as we can and we don't tow heavy with it and do mostly hwy so I was thinking at 60k miles. I have no idea what the trans temp is but they put an extra cooler on the Outbacks so I think it should be fine. For some reason they include engine oil temp as displayable and they don't over cool that. It reads 200-210F after 20 minutes on the hwy at only 1600-1800 rpm. Seems a bit high really for that rpm but our light towing doesn't seem to increase it so I guess its fine.
That's fanboy attitude (my car is better, and validates that I make great decisions).
Even the manufacturers, that rate their transmission fluid "lifetime", say in the owner manual that is just for light-medium usage.
People claim that they have 200k miles on original fluid, but they don't say that 90% of that was done on highway conditions - low load, great air flow, low transmission temperatures. You can usually spot them because the had driven 30,000+ miles per year.
That doesn't apply at all for cars driven in city traffic (frequent gear shifting, heavy TC usage), in southern part of US (90-100F outdoor temps). Then 200F transmission temperatures are reached frequently. Temperature is the main transmission killer, not "miles".
If one drives with locked torque converter, constant 60mph speed, he can probably drive to the Moon and back without any wear on the transmission.
PS: My RAV4 with Towing Package, not towing, on highway gets 180-185F transmission temperature even when outside is 95-100F. I can drive for hours in 5th gear, TC locked and cruise control on. Basically it equals the engine temperature, no clutches wear, seals are just fine. It can last forever indeed.
But when I commute to work, in stop and go traffic, averaging 20mph, with 1000's of cars heating up the pavement to the point that I see outside temps at 10-20 degree higher than the air temperature in shade, then I see the transmission temperature creeping up to 200-210F. Heck some days I saw 220F when I wasn't moving at all (I needed AC, so the engine was running). And yes, the fans were blowing at high speed, but that doesn't cover the transmission. The hot air from the rad is forced out towards the bottom of engine bay, passing by the transmission case.
It's not the same at all.
You have stated in more detail what I said earlier... And I believe that you are right about this. Average temperature in the transmission makes a big, big difference in terms of how long the fluid is good for.
My open highway driving has greatly helped my car's transmission. Plenty of air flow and steady speed helps drop that average temperature to 170 like you stated here.
It's not a lie, they say ATF and transmission will last as long as car warranty does, that's all - just 'creative marketing'. After? It's all yours...
Those who believe in any (their) lifetime fluid (ATF) should reassess their opinion when they are 10-12y.o. or shortly after.
Those who believe in any (their) lifetime fluid (ATF) should reassess their opinion when they are 10-12y.o. or shortly after.
That chart has been around a while. IIRC it was mentioned since the publication of that chart ATF has evolved quite a bit, especially in the 200-225F range, and doesn't fail as quickly as the chart indicates at those temperatures. Having said that, there is no such thing as a true "lifetime" transmission fluid. At some point a person should drop the pan, replace the filter and clean the magnet if equipped. If said person doesn't and the unit fails, oh well there's always a next time to take better care of the vehicle.
FYI - If you decide to perform the fluid change yourself... Be prepared for the issue where you will not be able to remove the REFILL bolt as their is an interference issue with the neutral safety switch...
Yeah, using synthetic fluids helps in that 200-225F range. But eventually the elastomer seals will be damaged by temperature.
Did not have that problem on my 13 Elantra. But I understand it's an issue on the newer ones.
None of my cars has any lifetime fluids.
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