Thank you modern engineering (stability control)

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: Captain_Klink
the stability control in my 08 Subaru Impreza, it feels like a giant hand comes down from the sky and straightens up the vehicle. this is completely different from traction control that my Crown Vic had. with the Impreza, the computer takes the car out of the skid/fishtail/sideways-slide and straightens it right up - totally awesome and amazing.


It's like what we who don't have stability control do. Get off the GAS so you don't get any deeper in trouble. (ie.. common sense)

My 2005, 2007 and now 2011 Tundra work trucks have it. Personally I don't like it because at the smallest point it "thinks" you are going to "loose" it, it kills the power. A lot of time its just slightly spinning the rear tires on some slush and nothing makes the heart pound faster than pulling onto the main road with traffic going 50 and your engine dies. (or feels like it)

It wakes up once you are straight, but its VERY protective.

That's okay. We will all have it on every vehicle soon and be paying for it. $$

Bill


I agree with this to an extent. The ESC is great, especially when you want to drive hard. But when turning/accelerating on to a main road in the snow, I turn off TC. Spinning tires and gaining forward momentum is better than no power, and not going anywhere. Also when stuck or trying to get out of driveway or whatever in the snow, it has to be turned off for the same reason. Tirespin isn't always a bad thing.

 

[edhackett]

A friend has a newer Prius, (I don't think it's the latest one) which has traction control with no option to turn it off. It won't go up his driveway if there is any snow at all. He has to park at the bottom and walk up. He's not a happy camper. His earlier Prius without TC would go right up the driveway.

Ed

 

[JimR]

My 2010 Chrysler Town and Country has an "ESP" button on the dash that can be turned on and off. The service advisor at the dealership told me that I should turn off the ESP under normal dry driving conditions. Why, because he says that it will prematurely wear out your brakes if you keep it on all the time. He says that I would be lucky if I got 12,000 miles on my brakes if I keep the ESP on all the time.

What is confusing is that when you start the van, the ESP automatically comes on. The service advisor says that if you want it to be off, you press the ESP button and the light on the dash lights up indicating that the ESP system is OFF. Is he right about this? I thought it should be just the opposite. If it was lit up on the dash, then it was ON, not off, but he says to trust him that he is correct.

Anyway, after we start the van, we now automatically press the ESP button to turn the system off and keep it that way under normal driving conditions to save the brakes. Any thoughts?

 

[G-MAN]

Originally Posted By: JimR
My 2010 Chrysler Town and Country has an "ESP" button on the dash that can be turned on and off. The service advisor at the dealership told me that I should turn off the ESP under normal dry driving conditions. Why, because he says that it will prematurely wear out your brakes if you keep it on all the time. He says that I would be lucky if I got 12,000 miles on my brakes if I keep the ESP on all the time.

What is confusing is that when you start the van, the ESP automatically comes on. The service advisor says that if you want it to be off, you press the ESP button and the light on the dash lights up indicating that the ESP system is OFF. Is he right about this? I thought it should be just the opposite. If it was lit up on the dash, then it was ON, not off, but he says to trust him that he is correct.

Anyway, after we start the van, we now automatically press the ESP button to turn the system off and keep it that way under normal driving conditions to save the brakes. Any thoughts?


Your service adviser is full of baloney. You should leave the ESP on.

And, yes, the default for the ESP is on with the dash light off. When you turn the ESP off the light is on.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Way back in August of 05, at a track event hosted by Skip Barber, we were instructed that Stability Control on some cars can actually be used as a training tool. Learn to drive hard without triggering it and you're at least being very smooth.

And you northern guys know, smooth is EVERYTHING on ice!

But there is so much variance from make to make as each mfgr. seems to have a different type of programming and hardware. Note that many aftermarket tunes can push back the threshold of intervention and make the driving experience much more satisfying on some vehicles.

I must say that in my particular stable it is nice to be able to hand the keys to a 180 mph car to my wife and know that the ESP system may help keep her out of trouble!

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: G-MAN


Your service adviser is full of baloney. You should leave the ESP on.

And, yes, the default for the ESP is on with the dash light off. When you turn the ESP off the light is on.


+1. Service advisor is a moron (or at least uninformed, unknowledgable). The ESP is automatically on when you start the car because it's a safety feature (and a very good one at that). In normal driving conditions (i.e dry roads) the ESP and/or traction control would never engage, so could not possibly wear out the brakes prematurely.

The only possible way for it to prematurely wear out the brakes would be if you lived in Alaska and ran slicks for tires and drove everywhere at full throttle. And even then, the computer would probably shut down the system to prevent the brakes from overheating.

Read your owner's manual and I guarantee you, you will know more about your vehicle than most service advisors (or just ask here at BITOG).

 

[G-MAN]

Also, since the ESP system used by Chrysler is the one developed by Mercedes, you CAN'T disable it completely. Pushing the button on the dash to "turn it off" only changes the parameters in which it will engage. In other words, turning it "off" just means it well let you get in a little bit more trouble before it steps in and corrects the problem. The only way to completely disable to ESP on a Chrysler or Mercedes is to pull the fuse.

 

[G-MAN]

And one other thing, the next time the service adviser "advises" you to turn off the ESP, pull out your pen and paper and ask him how to spell his name correctly. When he asks you why say "Because I want to get it right on the complaint for the multi-million dollar law suit I'll be filing when I have a wreck that the ESP could have prevented."

 

[SteveSRT8]

or run an aftermarket tuner! But if you just push it back far enough it becomes the nice 'safety net' it should be.

And rcy, that's another misinformed post. As an example, many cars these days wear out the REAR brakes first even in dry conditions because of traction control tapping on the brakes for wheelspin you can't even feel!

I repeat, all the systems and controlling software are very different. There's many ways to skin this cat.

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
or run an aftermarket tuner! But if you just push it back far enough it becomes the nice 'safety net' it should be.

And rcy, that's another misinformed post. As an example, many cars these days wear out the REAR brakes first even in dry conditions because of traction control tapping on the brakes for wheelspin you can't even feel!

I repeat, all the systems and controlling software are very different. There's many ways to skin this cat.


And how would that happen with a FWD vehicle (of which the majority on the road seem to be?). The minivan in question also being a FWD vehicle.

 

[G-MAN]

Originally Posted By: rcy
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
or run an aftermarket tuner! But if you just push it back far enough it becomes the nice 'safety net' it should be.

And rcy, that's another misinformed post. As an example, many cars these days wear out the REAR brakes first even in dry conditions because of traction control tapping on the brakes for wheelspin you can't even feel!

I repeat, all the systems and controlling software are very different. There's many ways to skin this cat.


And how would that happen with a FWD vehicle (of which the majority on the road seem to be?). The minivan in question also being a FWD vehicle.


Exactly. And even on RWD cars this whole notion of widespread premature brake wear due to ESP or traction control is nonsense. The milisecond or so that traction control engages the brakes to correct wheelspin does not induce near the wear that the driver does every time he steps on the pedal to stop the car.

I had the front brake pads done on my 07 300 (RWD) when I got it. I had them check the rear pads. At 50,000 miles the rear pads still had over 3/4 of life.

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah


Not on ice. And on situations like I said above (getting on a main road with slush/snow/ice) all it does is kill the throttle until it straightens up then allows the gas to slowly come on.

I can spin the tires quite a bit before the traction control comes on IF I'm going straight. If I'm in a turn its the stability control kicking on. Also major difference between the two systems.

I've been in pure ice too many times and it does nothing for braking if you are getting out of control. Why? Nothing to brake on.

As far as hard surfaces that are dry, never had the system activate it since I don't take a 6000+ lb truck and get it going to the wrong way...

Bill


Interesting video with stability control working on ice.
(it's at the end, but the beginning of the video is interesting - ABS and traction control examples.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: G-MAN
And one other thing, the next time the service adviser "advises" you to turn off the ESP, pull out your pen and paper and ask him how to spell his name correctly. When he asks you why say "Because I want to get it right on the complaint for the multi-million dollar law suit I'll be filing when I have a wreck that the ESP could have prevented."


That statement demonstrates that you're already fully aware of the risks. I think the negligence would be on you anyway!

But yeah, it's one way of saying that they're setting themselves up for a future lawsuit. The only people that should be disabling stability control on a regular basis are those who already understand it on a deeper level than a typical dealership employee. If you can't tell whether the stability control is active within a couple of minutes of driving in winter conditions, then it should probably stay on!

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: rcy
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
...curving exit ramp scenario with patchy ice...


This is exactly the scenario. The ice was not the entire ramp, just where the melting snow had run down the grade and frozen.

You're in Texas...how'd you know this?? It would be like me saying "curving exit ramp scenario with blazing hot asphalt"

About every 3-5 years, we get freezing rain.... which means we go from ZERO experience in driving on snow and ice to having to drive on THE WORST possible surface- flyovers coated in an inch of black ice. I find that I can't help but laugh at people from up north who think its crazy that we close schools for ice and "just can't drive in snow," then go out and wrap themselves around a bridge abutment because... it aint snow that we get. I've driven in Boston in blinding snow, and its a piece of cake compared to freezing rain.

 

[Steve S]

When you are on ice there is nothing that will save you because there isn't traction unless studded tires are used. But then I hate ice on the road.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: rcy
Interesting video with stability control working on ice.
(it's at the end, but the beginning of the video is interesting - ABS and traction control examples.


That guy's pretty slow with his reaction times. He spent at least four seconds with the wheels locked in the braking example without realizing that he needs to ease off the brakes to steer!

I'd like to see how even a moderately skilled driver would handle the stability control test. This video certainly proves that stability control is a necessity if you're so slow to react to oversteer that you leave the front wheels turned in the opposite direction of the way you want to go during a slide!

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: rpn453

That guy's pretty slow with his reaction times. He spent at least four seconds with the wheels locked in the braking example without realizing that he needs to ease off the brakes to steer!

I'd like to see how even a moderately skilled driver would handle the stability control test. This video certainly proves that stability control is a necessity if you're so slow to react to oversteer that you leave the front wheels turned in the opposite direction of the way you want to go during a slide!


I think that was the point of the braking video. To show how there is no steering if the wheels are locked (the ABS was disabled). In the subsequent section, the ABS is enabled to show how he can maintain steering if the wheels are not locked.

That's the point behind stability control I guess - for the majority who aren't moderately skilled (and I mean the majority) or for those times where even a moderately skilled driver just doesn't have the time to react.

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
When you are on ice there is nothing that will save you because there isn't traction unless studded tires are used. But then I hate ice on the road.


Did you watch the video? I believe that was a frozen lake they were doing the stability control test on. Also the traction control test was on an artificial 10% grade prepared with layer of ice.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: rcy
I think that was the point of the braking video. To show how there is no steering if the wheels are locked (the ABS was disabled). In the subsequent section, the ABS is enabled to show how he can maintain steering if the wheels are not locked.

That's the point behind stability control I guess - for the majority who aren't moderately skilled (and I mean the majority) or for those times where even a moderately skilled driver just doesn't have the time to react.


My problem is with the presentation, not the concept. It is a Discovery Channel show, so they're obviously dumbing it down a lot, but I still think it's misleading and probably even deceptive.

"One of the hardest things for ABS to do is stop you on any icy hill. Without ABS, this happens."

Incorrect. The statement should be: "Without ABS, this could happen." Or better yet, "Without ABS or an understanding of threshold braking, this happens."

In the stability control test, I believe he intentionally loses control in the non-ESP run. At the 3:07 mark, you can see from the view in the windshield that he would only need to make a slight left and then continue straight on, with maybe a bit of correction, to make it through the gap, yet he totally cranks the steering wheel to the right to the point that he even shuffle-steers! Then, when the back end steps out, he continues steering in the opposite direction that he should be steering. In the ESP run, beginning at 4:40, we see that he only turns the steering wheel an appropriate amount to make the gap, and he also somehow even gains the ability to counter-steer when the back end steps out a bit. If you bring up the video in separate windows and compare the video at 4:43 to that at 3:38, you can see that he applies excessive steering input in only the non-ESP run. There is no reason for him to do that as the car is still in an understeer condition in both scenarios when he begins turning right. The fact that he doesn't shuffle-steer in the ESP run makes it obvious enough by itself.

"The ESP senses a potential skid, so first cuts power, then applies individual brakes to counteract the slide. It reacts better than any human could."

Well, let's see it! Let's see if an idiot driver can get through that test smoother and faster with stability control on than a professional driver can without. Why don't they demonstrate that to back up their claim?

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: rcy
Wouldn't more grip be "mostly" dependent on tires, rather than centre of gravity or weight?

It's tires and vehicle together. A heavier vehicle has more momentum and requires more friction to keep in check.

+1
Last time I was at the ice races I watched a terrific battle between a Subaru Justy, AWD 62hp and 1600lbs, and a 90's AWD Turbo Talon, 200+hp, 2800-3000lbs. I think it was even in the street stud class which uses normal DOT studded winter tires, so it is possible to put down some power.
The track is a kidney bean shape so for 2/3's the cars are turning. So the Justy would slowly walk away from the Talon through the turns and hook up on the front straight and putter down to the next corner. The Talon always seemed just far enough behind that it reeled in the Justy by the end of the straight but couldn't get close enough for a pass and had to start braking much earlier to make the corner...
This went on for a half dozen laps but the Justy won by quite a bit.