Texaco/Havoline Spec Change?

[Maverick]

If memory serves me right, I believe the Texaco Havoline Spec sheet has changed. It used to be equal to the Chevron supreme specs, but it seems that the flash point for the Havoline is now much higher for the 10w30, and the TBN went down slightly from before. Specs still look good at first glance. I am very anxious to see the Mobil 1 SS results (am running that now), but it is just getting too **** expensive - so I'm seriously thinking of switching to Havoline after my 6000 mi is up. This stuff (Havoline) is a good dollar or so cheaper than M1 too at $3.48/QT USD at AutoZone compared to $4.78 for M1. Most of the stores here are still using up the SJ stock but I've recently seen the SL...

Texaco Havoline Synthetic:

http://library.cbest.chevron.com/lube s/compprd9.nsf/c88c682625e06af6882568db00737ce8/504d0e0f357849ad88256b56006f6eb4/$FILE/PCMO-2220.pdf

Chevron Supreme Synthetic:
http://library.cbest.chevron.com/lubes/compp rd9.nsf/c88c682625e06af6882568db00737ce8/5174c73a7311df5b882568ac007d5500?OpenDocument

-Maverick
'01 Accord Coupe Mobil 1 Supersyn 5w-30
'94 Camry Maxlife 10w-30
'95 Explorer Chevron Supreme 10w-40

[ August 04, 2002, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[Patman]

496F flash point on the Havoline 10w30, holy hannah!

That is awesome!

With the Chevron 10w30, it's got an incredible -60F pour point too. So it seems that these oils would be a great alternative to Mobil 1! I might just give the Havoline a whirl in my wife's car to compare to Mobil 1 after the SuperSyn testing is over.

One could run the Havoline in the summer for it's hot weather properties, then the Chevron in the cold winter for it's slightly better cold weather properties.

With those kind of specs there should be no doubt that these oils aren't made from a group 3 base!

 

[Maverick]

The thing that bugs me is that the Chevron and Havoline specs used to be identical. I am thinking that those Chevron specs will be updated soon. I remember another thread mentioning that the Chevron specs were slightly out of date, but those Havoline's are definately new.

-Maverick

 

[Patman]

I just took a closer look at those specs, and the Havoline 10w30 has a better pour point than the 5w30! Why would anyone want to use the 5w30? The 10w30 also has a much better Noack number, only 5%, compared to 10% for the 5w30. And as mentioned, the 10w30's flash point is 496F, while the 5w30 is 471F. Seems to me there is no advantage to running the 5w30 Havoline at all.

 

[jjbula]

Maverick,

Just saw five quart jugs of Mobil 1 at Walmart for $17.88.
Castrol Syntec, if you like that, was $15

But Havoline synthetic looks great!
Even the 5w40 has a very low Noack.
Lower than the 5w30!?

I wonder which additive ends up hiking up the Noack on oil.
Whatever it is Havoline has successfully avoided it.

[ July 31, 2002, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: jjbula ]

 

[Patman]

I have another question. Weren't the old numbers posted for Havoline and Chevron also for the SL formulation? If so, why did they change? Did they reformulate already? Or just re-test?

 

[jjbula]

How did the Viscosity Index end up lower on
the 5w40 than on the 5w30?
What does that tell me?

By the way these oils crush M1 in several ways.

You can justify buying them for the same price
any day of the week

[ July 31, 2002, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: jjbula ]

 

[Maverick]

Then that's a great price. The Walmart stores near me aren't that great - especially in automotive. The only oil I have seen in the 5 qt jugs are Quaker State, Pennzoil, and Castrol. I'll have to check out some others a bit farther away I suppose. Thanks for the tip.

Maverick

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjbula:
Maverick,

Just saw five quart jugs of Mobil 1 at Walmart for $17.88.
Castrol Syntec, if you like that, was $15

But Havoline synthetic looks great!
Even the 5w40 has a very low Noack.
Lower than the 5w30!?

I wonder which additive ends up hiking up the Noack on oil.
Whatever it is Havoline has successfully avoided it.

---

 

[Maverick]

That's the question of the day. Is this a "true" synthetic or not? According to the MSDS (updated on 06Feb I'm seeing the word "Hydrotreated". That's telling me it's not PAO. But is the MSDS accurate? Anyone care to shed any light on this? The FAQ on Chevron's site pretty much says they're Group III. I'm starting to wonder why I even care about this Group III, PAO rivalry. The oil seems to be high quality regardless, and cheaper than Mobil 1.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patman:
With those kind of specs there should be no doubt that these oils aren't made from a group 3 base!

---

[ July 31, 2002, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Maverick ]

 

[Maverick]

This is a pretty cool link - much more informative than some of the other motor oil brand sites.

http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/baseoils/products.shtml

At first glance it still doesn't say whether the Havoline is a PAO oil - but my hunch is they're Group III synthetic.

This sounds like an answer here (after some exploring on the site):

Are ChevronTexaco UCBOs synthetic?
A recent ruling from a respected advertising self-regulatory body decided a case on the use of the term synthetic. It found that synthetic base stock are not limited PAOs. The decision said that the key requirement for calling a base stock synthetic is that it be the result of conversion or processing of one complex mixture. ChevronTexaco UCBOs clearly meet the test. With UCBOs priced well below the cost of current synthetic base oils, this ruling translates to savings the can boost your bottom line without sacrificing the quality of your finished product.

There you have it.

Maverick

[ July 31, 2002, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Maverick ]

 

[Terry]

UCBO = hydrocracked petroleum base oil.
UCBO is Chevron for hrdrocracked. "unconventional base oil."

 

[jjbula]

Thanks Maverick for the great link.

Patman-- Looking at the link to base oil comparisons,
I'm getting a better appreciation for PAO over Group III.
The pour point on Chevrons base Group III is -18C and
can be reduced to -42 with "additive".
The PAO is -73C.

All other specs look real close.

[ July 31, 2002, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: jjbula ]

 

[dragboat]

Maverick,

Thanks for the post! Very interesting this new Havoline. Was out of the running a few months go so how would one deterimine if it is the new formulation if found?
Also interesting now that Shell has moved to Oklahoma,all Texaco products have been removed from Walmart unless I have overlooked ?

I will be honest,I am a bit confused. Is it a group III or not? Group III with PAO's? Esters?

Also a bit surprised this topic thread is not discussed more than it has been with those kind of numbers

 

[GeorgeCLS]

The one difficulty I am having, even working in the industry, is keeping track of just who owns who, who really is producing what and what is really in the bottles! (Group II, II+, Group III, IV, etc.). We should have Bob keep a current, easy to use spreadsheet listing who the current owner is of what product and where produced and of what makeup.. Just kidding, but gosh it gets confusing. i.e. that Kendall oil is now just a Brand Name and no longer produced in Bradford, Pa., etc. It really is getting difficult; i.e. Texaco, for an excellent example..

 

[Maverick]

If I remember correctly, the Chevron Supreme Synthetic specs haven't changed. They are still SJ based. I can't find this stuff in the stores by me. On the other hand - the older Havloline specs I swore were SL, but now the new specs suggest a re-formulation, plus the addition of the 5w-40. The Havoline in the stores I've found comes in SJ and SL, with different bottle styles, the SJ and SL even interspersed between a row. Old inventory I suppose.
Chevron's website seems to indicate that this is a Group III, but none of the other GIII oils I've seen have a 496 flash point (10w-30). However, I remember Terry mentioning that Chevron has sat on hydrocracking technology for a long time, and it looks like they've developed a nice oil with this process.

Maverick

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patman:
I have another question. Weren't the old numbers posted for Havoline and Chevron also for the SL formulation? If so, why did they change? Did they reformulate already? Or just re-test?

---

 

[Johnny]

Let me take a stab at this:

Kendall and Amalie use to be owned by WHITCO. They sold off and Amalie went on their own and are now based in Florida. Kendall was bought by SONOCO. SONOCO sold off the lubricants to TOSCO. TOSCO was bought by Phillips 66 and this whole thing is getting ready to be joined with CONOCO.

TEXACO was Texaco until they murged with Shell to form Equilon. Shell sold the Texaco fuels division to Chevron but kept all the lubricant formulas. If you see Havoline with Equilon on the bottle, it is made by Shell. If you see Havoline with Chevron/Texaco on the bottle, it is made by Chevron. I believe Shell has the right to make Havoline for the next 12 months.

AMOCO fuels was purchaed by BP and the lubricants division of AMOCO was purchaed by Chevron and BP/AMOCO purchaed Castrol Lubricants.

Pennzoil purchased Quaker State which is soon to be purchased by Shell.

Exxon purchased Mobil.

CAN ANYONE SAY STANDARD OIL COMPANY.

Most of the above use Group II in their conventional oil and all except Exxon/Mobil use Group III in their synthetics.

All Group II base stocks are either purchased from Chevron or Exxon/Mobil, except for the Pennzoil and CONOCO Group II. They are co-owners of the large Group II refinery in Lake Charles Louisiana.

CLEAR AS MUD.

 

[dragboat]

Well I just saw the old style quart containers and the new style with the larger cap,both were GF2's and SJ at Autozone

If that new formulation of Texaco is used now"if found" ,what brand or name will it be in a year from now?

So Johnny,thanks for the post,much going on it seems!Buy the way,the racks of Pennzoil were near empty!Castrol not moving at all at that store

Rows of dusty Delo 400 and DelVac. Not at Walmart. Geeze those guys are moving the oil!

 

[widman]

I think Johnny has the best handle on this. And with Chevron starting to make the Texaco products with new formulations, they must be going crazy with spec sheets and msds. Those of us that need them have to wait months (years) for the translated versions.

 

[GeorgeCLS]

Johnny, thank you so much for the summary; excellent job!.. It is my understanding that Shell was not going to produce any of the Texaco undustrial lubricants, only the engine oils..??
You did not cover Castrol, however. As we all know, there is no such thing as a Castrol refinery here in the U.S. (or anywhere in the world for that matter).. How many variations of Castrol GTX are there?? Chevron west coast, Mobil East coast, Conoco South??
And yet there are so many Castrol Loyalists who swear by the oil, whatever it is, whoever it is really blended and bottled by...

[ August 04, 2002, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: GeorgeCLS ]

 

[ssmokn]

I emailed Chevron Tech. from their website and asked them if the Chevron Supreme 100% Synthetic and it's Havoline counterpart was PAO or Group III base. I also asked if the Chevron oil was the same as the Havoline (since I can usually find one or the other but not always both unless I go to my local distributor).

The response was except for the artic grade 0W30 all their synthetics are Group III based oils.

They also stated that the Chevron and Havoline oils are different formulations but 100% compatible in all ways.