Tesla Q1 sales flatlining, as I have predicted

Most of the legacy companies have EVs, right? They are eligible for the tax credit too, right?
Doing great? Perhaps review the US sales numbers in post #33.

I am not in favor of the subsidies; Musk has said that many times.
How do you feel about the many ICE bailouts and big oil subsidies? I always wonder why some bring up subsidies in a partial vacuum...
Jeff, you and I live in alternate universes and why I dont get involved in discussions with you anymore.
There is no tax credit for ICE vehicles. In case you are not aware (which we know you are fully aware), Ice vehicles are GM, Ford and Toyota line of business.
I know what is going to happen, much like I have predicted before the Tesla stock dove to new lows when you thought it was going to hit the sky when the stock split occurred.

Facts are facts, Tesla produces cars and only one kind of car, they slashed prices this year and along with tax credits totaling close to 20% of the purchase price of a Tesla is doing nothing spectacular in moving cars with such huge discounts. Im looking forward to their April 19th financial report for a more clear picture, I can only guess it wont be pretty but even if it is good means nothing, sooner or later they will have to compete with the "big boys" and not rely on tax credits. The stock is not worth 50 times earnings, just like it wasnt worth 75% to 100% earnings when you thought it was.
 
Disagree.
First, pickup trucks account for the majority of new vehicle sales (6 of top 10 sellers). SUVs are next (2 of top 10 sellers). Tesla won't be able to make a pickup truck with the features that pickup owners need or want. Similar assessment for SUVs.

Secondly, the infrastructure and tech is nowhere near enough to support beyond a 10% adoption. And ultimately TESLA will experience strong competition when 10 companies crack the code, and have to radically cut profitability. We're probably a decade away, maybe 2. And that will probably be set back by a global economic shift, US dollar collapse, and global hot wars in 1-3 years. EVs will be low priority in our near future. People will want very reliable long range ICE that are easy to power and fix.

Third, anyone who wanted an EV, has one. Growth is slowing. And, whilst 36% Q1 to Q1 might sound impressive, the reality is that figure on the heels of a trend from 100%, to 68%, to now 36%, it's a dramatic decline trend and the worst Q1 to Q1 comparison in the most recent years, and the LOWEST SINCE AT LEAST 2017. And, as mentioned, this is with huge price reduction/gimmicks of cutting prices PLUS big tax rebates that pay for 1/4 of the price of the cars. Put the corks back in the champagne bottles. These are indications of a stalling demand, stagnating economy.

We're at around a 4-5% total US adoption, grossly disproportionately in a few CA zip codes where the climate and customer base is perfect for EVs. That's unique and hard to replicate in most of the rest of the US, where adoption is closer to 1% on average. Anyone who wants a Tesla, has one by now. That is reflected by essentially flat Q4 to Q1 this year, and a hard drop in Q1 to Q1 comparisons for several years. No way we'll see a 25% adoption in a few years. Maybe high single digits at most.


Agreed with the analysis. I would HOPE an effective 25-35% effective price slash would stimulate demand. Yet it's barely higher than the previous 2 years of Q4 to Q1 comparisons, and it's the worst Q1 to Q1 in several years. Not good metrics, in spite of "record sales." It's quickly cooling, due to saturated market and micro/macro economic issues...

A final small note, while stock prices day-to-day are a poor indication, it's a data point of consumer/investor short term enthusiasm. Generally sales news does impact a stock price next day. Apparently investors aren't pleased with TSLA's sales, stock is down 6% today. If it were good news, we would expect an increase. If the news were neutral, we'd expect no stock price fluctuation. It's down 6%. Not horrible, but a data point to further support my analysis. As noted, in 12 months TSLA is down 50%. That is a good data point to correct an over-valued company. I suspect it needs to come down another 25%, given the unjustified over-valuations.
I wouldn't say everyone has one, that wants one, and slowing exponential growth is still exponential growth, a 30% increase per year is still going to be a big number fast!...

There's lots of middle income 2+ car families waiting for the prices to come down a bit and an electric 2nd vehicle realistically suits maybe 80-90% of urban families. Carbon taxes are also not going to get smaller either, and realistically, does anyone think that we won't have the majority of vehicles become electric at some point in the future? Battery research funding must also be growing exponentially as the payoff for developing a cheaper/better battery is getting very big now.

I think you are betting on the horse and buggy or steam engines as initially, who would get rid of a paid for set of horses, and pay 20 times as much for an early motor car? Grass and hay were everywhere, and gas or alcohol stations were very rare, horses never caught on fire or broke down every week, or needed a mechanic... I'm sure some thought it was a government conspiracy to make us all dependent on oil companies!

When do you think light personal vehicle sales will hit 50% hybrid or pure electric? then 80%? For sure ,some folks and applications need the advantages of liquid fuels, but most of us don't for a majority of trips.
 
Jeff, you and I live in alternate universes and why I dont get involved in discussions with you anymore.
There is no tax credit for ICE vehicles. In case you are not aware (which we know you are fully aware), Ice vehicles are GM, Ford and Toyota line of business.
I know what is going to happen, much like I have predicted before the Tesla stock dove to new lows when you thought it was going to hit the sky when the stock split occurred.

Facts are facts, Tesla produces cars and only one kind of car, they slashed prices this year and along with tax credits totaling close to 20% of the purchase price of a Tesla is doing nothing spectacular in moving cars with such huge discounts. Im looking forward to their April 19th financial report for a more clear picture, I can only guess it wont be pretty but even if it is good means nothing, sooner or later they will have to compete with the "big boys" and not rely on tax credits. The stock is not worth 50 times earnings, just like it wasnt worth 75% to 100% earnings when you thought it was.
Agreed.

To answer Jeff's questions, we are in agreement that we both dislike big corporate subsidies in general. I was vehemently against the car company bailouts, bank bailouts, airline bailouts, stock market bailouts, and Tesla subsidies. Let's face it, Tesla is the largest benefactor.

As for the EV subsidies, Tesla was the early front runner so has deep comparative and competitive advantages. Nokia is a great example, as it essentially invented the modern cell phone. Everyone had a Nokia. Stock reached $60. Now it's mostly irrelevant, and shares are $4. See also, Netflix with streaming services. Netflix now competes with many others. Netflix went from nothing, $1 to $700. Now it's around $350. Still excellent but it's faced big competition. A similar example is Facebook/Meta. From nothing to $400, now around $200. Many fore-runners in industries, particularly the tech industry, experience similar wild irrational exuberance. Palm Pilot, Myspace, Barnes & Noble online sales, Square, Kodak, Circuit City, and a long list of companies that no longer exist or have lost huge market share.

At some point, probably very soon, Tesla is going to have real competition in EVs and at some point the tax credits go bye-bye. A 50x valuation on a car/tech stock is 10-20x more than car companies in general. It is irrational exuberance. It won't last. Reality is going to sink in. I will simply, again, point to a 50% stock drop in 1 year, and the essentially flat Q4-Q1 ratio, and the worst Q1-Q1 ratio in many years. These are all very bad trends for TSLA.
 
Jeff, you and I live in alternate universes and why I dont get involved in discussions with you anymore.
There is no tax credit for ICE vehicles. In case you are not aware (which we know you are fully aware), Ice vehicles are GM, Ford and Toyota line of business.
I know what is going to happen, much like I have predicted before the Tesla stock dove to new lows when you thought it was going to hit the sky when the stock split occurred.

Facts are facts, Tesla produces cars and only one kind of car, they slashed prices this year and along with tax credits totaling close to 20% of the purchase price of a Tesla is doing nothing spectacular in moving cars with such huge discounts. Im looking forward to their April 19th financial report for a more clear picture, I can only guess it wont be pretty but even if it is good means nothing, sooner or later they will have to compete with the "big boys" and not rely on tax credits. The stock is not worth 50 times earnings, just like it wasnt worth 75% to 100% earnings when you thought it was.
I am holding my stock and currently have a nice gain. Do I wish it were $400 again? Sure. TSLA is a volatile stock, period. I do not depend on it for my well being. In fact I am mostly against owning individual stocks. That's too risky.

You say there is no tax credit for ICE. Not necessarily true; plug in hybrids qualify just like EVs.
And Tesla is not the only company who makes EVs, right? In the US, big oil is subsidized to the tune of $20B per year. Why single out Tesla for subsidies?

The big boys primary business is ICE. Sure, and their EV business is propped up by their ICE business and many have gotten bailouts, etc. Some state they will be all electric, I hear. My point is, I look at the entire market; I do not break out EV vs Hybrid vs ICE or whatever. Because they all compete for our customer dollars.

You say the stock is not worth 50x earnings. The stock is worth what someone will pay for it. The market speaks louder than any of us.

All good AlarmGuy. I am not so sure we live in alternate universes; perhaps we view them differently. many seem to think I am all about EVs; I understand that. Not true; look at my car list. And I constantly state EVs are not for everyone. What I am talking about here is business results, and the results speak for themselves. Tesla continues to take market share; that's the numbers.

Thanks for chiming in!
 
There's lots of middle income 2+ car families waiting for the prices to come down a bit and an electric 2nd vehicle realistically suits maybe 80-90% of urban families.
And in 20 years that might happen. EVs are far too young now, and we have not experienced the Gen1 that have dead batteries at year 12, and go to landfills. That is a data point we will see in 5 years. These middle income families likely do not tend to buy new cars, they will want a used car that will last a long time. ICE has a known advantage, EVs have a speculative dis-advantage.

Why do I say middle income families don't buy new cars? Because they don't. Especially in our current climate of "hard money." Interest rates are >7% on autos, which given the typical new car being north of $40,000 it's a back breaker.
And while gas prices might not be directly competitive with short distance EV uses, the math still works out as approximately as good for ICE as EV for costs, given electricity rates which will also go higher. Also, EVs require a place to charge them. Many people live in locations that do not accommodate this. Or a family that shares 1 car, cannot have a EV going nonstop. ETC.

Economics today. Between national debt, personal debt, interest rates, 2/3rds of Americans in near poverty, even 1/2 the people earning low 6 figures stretching their dollars, US dollar teetering on collapse.... shooting wars on the horizon, the lowest priority for most Americans is a new $50,000+ EV.

I think you are betting on the horse and buggy or steam engines as initially, who would get rid of a paid for set of horses, and pay 20 times as much for an early motor car?
I think you are not factoring that gas cars were "new technology." Adoption was relatively fast with mass production. Mostly delayed by having limited infrastructure (roads, fuel stations, etc.).

But whereas gas cars were new, and adoption far faster than EVs, battery powered car adoption is now at around year 120. Battery powered cars are not new. Battery powered cars were invented over 110 years ago. They have been unworkable and lagged behind ICE until about 4-5 years ago, and are still unworkable by most auto makers. Tesla simply cracked the code, which can be reverse engineered.

See, whereas gas cars offered clear near universal advantages over horses, EVs offer no such clear universal advantages. Their main selling point is they can be charged overnight, and they can be made a bit quicker. Some people like the technology aspects, some despise it.

For 95% of auto buyers, apparently they weigh the disadvantages as more important. Limited power, limited range, limited designs, requirement of having a place to charge it, inconveniences of limited range and slow charging, greater repair times/costs, more complexities, limited places to repair them, bad in cold weather and snow, higher costs for similar platforms, heavier platforms and more expensive tires, perceived drastically shorter lifespan, limited offerings on the used market, and some people just refuse to adopt them, like myself.
 
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big oil is subsidized to the tune of $20B per year. Why single out Tesla for subsidies?
Is Tesla necessary to power the nation, and a part of critical national defense needs? It Tesla found in plastics, fertilizer, concrete? Does Tesla power fighter jets, Naval ships, Army tanks? Does Tesla lubricate every machine in the country? Does Tesla power heavy earth moving construction equipment? Does Tesla power missiles and rockets?

There's your answer.
 
I would like input from the lead protagonists in this thread about the following related consideration:
Just about every new car or truck except Teslas sold for the last 2 years has had ADM, PACs, doc fees and just about every thing else that is non-value added placed on the secondary sticker. I don't know about other people, but this aggravates me to the point that I will never buy from a dealer that took advantage of the shortage to profiteer.
We also have a thread suggesting new car pricing is approaching $50k.
Do you think the badwill (opposite of goodwill) from the dealers combined with ICE overpricing will help Tesla's sales going forward?
 
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I would like input from the lead protagonists in this thread about the following related consideration:
Just about every new car or truck except Teslas sold for the last 2 years has had ADM, PACs, doc fees and just about every thing else that is non-value added placed on the secondary sticker. I don't know about other people, but this aggravates me to the point that I will never buy from a dealer that took advantage of the shortage to profiteer.
We also have a thread suggesting new car pricing is approaching $50k.
Do you think the badwill (opposite of goodwill) from the dealers combined with ICE overpricing will help Tesla's sales going forward?
Dealerships are not your friend. Having said that, I imagine a bunch of Tesla customers had a fit when all of a sudden Tesla cut prices as much as 20%. That's real money as these cars are not cheap.

I will say this, the Tesla buying experience is pretty good. I've had good (and not so good) experiences with Lexus. Other makes I just deal with fleet sales. Less emotion and way less drama.

One would expect the dealership sales model to give way to the direct sales model. The dealership is pure cost with little or no value added. Legacy manufacturers are strapped somewhat to the dealership model, which hurts the bottom line.
 
Jeff, you and I live in alternate universes and why I dont get involved in discussions with you anymore.
There is no tax credit for ICE vehicles. In case you are not aware (which we know you are fully aware), Ice vehicles are GM, Ford and Toyota line of business.
I know what is going to happen, much like I have predicted before the Tesla stock dove to new lows when you thought it was going to hit the sky when the stock split occurred.

Facts are facts, Tesla produces cars and only one kind of car, they slashed prices this year and along with tax credits totaling close to 20% of the purchase price of a Tesla is doing nothing spectacular in moving cars with such huge discounts. Im looking forward to their April 19th financial report for a more clear picture, I can only guess it wont be pretty but even if it is good means nothing, sooner or later they will have to compete with the "big boys" and not rely on tax credits. The stock is not worth 50 times earnings, just like it wasnt worth 75% to 100% earnings when you thought it was.
That would mean something if gasoline wasn't subsidized. Electric cars are subsidized at the point of sale. Gasoline cars are subsidized every time you fill the tank and it's still more expensive than charging. None of it is as black and white as you're trying to make it sound. I don't understand why it has to be a hot button issue.

The stock price though is ridiculous and I have to say as time goes on I don't love everything about my Tesla, it's good but not perfect. I'm at this point not in a huge rush to get rid of my last ICE car. I enjoy the variety.
 
True but overvaluation always corrects itself.
Tesla is anything but a traditional car company. They are disrupters. Valuing them like a traditional car company has never been appropriate.
The stock is volatile. The company is far more Apple than GM/Toyota. You and I are old enough to remember Apple's journey. It "was gonna be gone any day now" too.

Even with it's drop from 12 months ago, TSLA market cap is still what, 3x Toyota?
My SWAG is $225 to $300 by EOY depending on Highland, Cybertruk, SEMI and Monterrey.

Tesla is the leader in the EV space, by far, and is gaining market share overall. The question is, how much upside is left?
If you believe EV acceptance will grow, that's good for Tesla.
Up until now the Tesla customer base is mainly upper middle class male. Younger people want Teslas (tech baby!) but of course cannot afford them.
That's changing. Tesla is investing $5B in Monterrey and has said that investment could double or triple. Along with vehicles, Tesla will produce batteries, semiconductors and software there. Without their astronomical valuation leverage, this rapid growth would not be possible.

The difference between my analysis and others' is, others seem to know what is going to happen, and happen pretty soon. I post results and events that are in process. I don't have benefit of a crystal ball but I can read a balance sheet and business plan.

Tesla is anything but a traditional car company.
 
Do you think the badwill (opposite of goodwill) from the dealers combined with ICE overpricing will help Tesla's sales going forward?
no, Tesla has proven much higher priced and why the massive price reductions and big benefits from current tax credits to help it through tough times.
Just imagine if the price of a Tesla did not drop by 20% this year.

There is no badwill, ice cars in such demand they can’t keep up production. If what you’re thinking was reality Tesla would not have to slash prices like they have and even with the price reductions as demand would have been high enough so they wouldn’t have had too but it’s not and with the reduced prices they are still producing more than they are delivering/selling.
Meanwhile all other car manufacturers are adding EVs to their lineups and will further sink the limited demand for EVs at least as a primary car for many but let’s not ignore the EV competition itself. Awesome, fresh, beautiful EVs coming out from the legacy companies as well
 
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Yeah, Tesla is in trouble... Giga Berlin is aiming to double production.
In Feb Berlin hit the 4,000 per week milestone.
In March they hit 5,000 to bring annual run rate to 250K vehicles.
They want to add a 4th shift to bring the run rate to 500K.
Longer term plan is 2M car annual run rate to service Europe.
Those Bavarian citizens just love punishing themselves. They'll learn the hard way. I think electricity there costs something like 5x the typical US state, and it's going to get worse. They benefited from an unseasonably warm winter.
EVs are bad, but even worse in cold weather with their range cut in 1/2.

I absolutely will laugh at these idiots, like I do all European nations killing fossil and nuclear, in favor or rainbow powered devices. Europe has cut its throat by killing off actual energy in favor of wishful thinking.
 
I was vehemently against the car company bailouts, bank bailouts, airline bailouts, stock market bailouts, and Tesla subsidies. Let's face it, Tesla is the largest benefactor.
Tesla got nowhere near what the other guys did, paid it back early and going forward didnt borrow taxpayer money so Im going to disagree with you.
 
Tesla got nowhere near what the other guys did, paid it back early and going forward didnt borrow taxpayer money so Im going to disagree with you.
At @UncleDave You are fully correct. I re-read what I wrote. I'm not sure what I was trying to articulate but I might have left out NOT, as in Tesla was NOT the largest benefactor. You are 100% correct, Tesla got $$ and very responsibly paid back. Many of the other government bailouts or "investments" were either total boondoggles (Solindra, various markets, CV19 'relief' and so forth), or paid back more slowly (the autos).

Look, I admire Tesla as an American company, and want it to succeed overall. Just, as I've said, not at the cost of ICE evolutions and sustained availability. I want there to be a choice, without .gov intervention. No unfair competition, no rebates, no unfair handouts, etc. Level playing field.

For some people EV is ideal. I applaud that. Use EV. For most, it's not. Let us have our ICE. Easy peasy.
 
That would mean something if gasoline wasn't subsidized. Electric cars are subsidized at the point of sale. Gasoline cars are subsidized every time you fill the tank and it's still more expensive than charging. None of it is as black and white as you're trying to make it sound. I don't understand why it has to be a hot button issue.
Oh come on now *LOL* !
It is black and white except for the "distractors"
1. Are the taxpayers giving me money to buy an electric car or not? YES
2. Are the taxpayers giving me money to buy an ICE vehicle or not? NO
Let's not be silly, bringing in gasoline subsides *LOL* comical at best and those of your electric utility subsidies.
Why not get into the argument of which contributes to the USA tax base more, electricity sales or gasoline sales? *LOL*

Which brings us back to question #`1 and #2 and we know the answer.
Im surprised I haven't seen (but maybe it's out there) taking the taxes that the poor pay and giving it to the wealthy to buy cars. Doesnt matter.
It's black and white except for convoluted distractions.
(btw, just discussing)
 
At @UncleDave You are fully correct. I re-read what I wrote. I'm not sure what I was trying to articulate but I might have left out NOT, as in Tesla was NOT the largest benefactor. You are 100% correct, Tesla got $$ and very responsibly paid back. Many of the other government bailouts or "investments" were either total boondoggles (Solindra, various markets, CV19 'relief' and so forth), or paid back more slowly (the autos).

Look, I admire Tesla as an American company, and want it to succeed overall. Just, as I've said, not at the cost of ICE evolutions and sustained availability. I want there to be a choice, without .gov intervention. No unfair competition, no rebates, no unfair handouts, etc. Level playing field.

For some people EV is ideal. I applaud that. Use EV. For most, it's not. Let us have our ICE. Easy peasy.

I've NEVER advocated that ICE should be legislated away.
A quick scan of my sig line reveals its filled with vehicles batteries will likely never replace.
I dont want to stop using these nor do I want them taken away from me.
 
Oh come on now *LOL* !
It is black and white except for the "distractors"
1. Are the taxpayers giving me money to buy an electric car or not? YES
2. Are the taxpayers giving me money to buy an ICE vehicle or not? NO
Let's not be silly, bringing in gasoline subsides *LOL* comical at best and those of your electric utility subsidies.
Why not get into the argument of which contributes to the USA tax base more, electricity sales or gasoline sales? *LOL*

Which brings us back to question #`1 and #2 and we know the answer.
Im surprised I haven't seen (but maybe it's out there) taking the taxes that the poor pay and giving it to the wealthy to buy cars. Doesnt matter.
It's black and white except for convoluted distractions.
(btw, just discussing)

2. The taxpayers are paying huge bills to keep the price of running it low. To insinuate otherwise is laughable.
 
Oh come on now *LOL* !
It is black and white except for the "distractors"
1. Are the taxpayers giving me money to buy an electric car or not? YES
2. Are the taxpayers giving me money to buy an ICE vehicle or not? NO
Let's not be silly, bringing in gasoline subsides *LOL* comical at best and those of your electric utility subsidies.
Why not get into the argument of which contributes to the USA tax base more, electricity sales or gasoline sales? *LOL*

Which brings us back to question #`1 and #2 and we know the answer.
Im surprised I haven't seen (but maybe it's out there) taking the taxes that the poor pay and giving it to the wealthy to buy cars. Doesnt matter.
It's black and white except for convoluted distractions.
(btw, just discussing)

Not to argue, but I didn't qualify for the tax credit and I still bought the car. Realistically I don't think anything should be subsidized. With some things like gas the amount is hidden. With the electric car tax credit, we see the number, but obviously since it is paid for through taxes and various ways the government washes our money, it actually costs us more than the $7,500. The gas subsidy argument is a bit tongue in cheek on my end, but less bad is still bad. It would be quite a shock to the system to see what the actual cost of our daily basic consumption actually is if each hand wasn't washing the next.

Technically everything should be black and white. The problem is that everything has gotten to a level of stupid where most are lost in the grey area instead of dealing with the matter at hand.

Just for sake of discussing, I'm going to make a really stupid, but loose point that could be possible. We all accept the idea in its basic form that supply and demand plays a large part in setting prices. Whether it's as true as we think it is, it's pretty well accepted. What if you were benefiting more from the electric car tax credit than you thought? What if that person buying an electric car bought something gasoline powered instead and now is another gasoline buyer. That would be more demand, right? It's possible(not very likely) that electric car sales could alleviate some demand for gasoline and keep prices lower.

My only point is that we have subsidies on almost everything we touch and they're all pointless because of it.
 
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